Lack Of Submission = Being A Bitch?

An interesting observation that I’ve made reading certain parts of the manosphere is that some (not all, and honestly not even a majority) of male bloggers/commenters have a huge misunderstanding of what constitutes “bitchy” behavior.

This subgroup rails against non-submissive women, claiming they are catty, unsexual/use sex as a tool, act cruel to their men, and actually enjoy publicly browbeating the very guy they supposedly love. While there ARE women like this…heck, I’ve met them myself…I’m never quite sure why there is the immediate assumption that a woman who doesn’t identify as or acts submissive is automatically guilty of this type of antisocial, revolting behavior.

Take the following conversation for example. It is part of the comment section from a blog I used to read, and involved myself, a submissive woman, and a man of the type I described above. We were talking about the concept of intersexual respect, and what would improve gender relations. This is what was said (their names have been changed);

Kathy-
“Women would be much better off learning how to properly submit to and respect men instead of making them feel inferior all the time.”

Tarnished-
“I disagree. Everybody is deserving of kindness, polite manners and respect, of course…and if a husband and wife agree to the Captain/First Officer model, that’s up to them. But just because I happen to have been born female doesn’t mean I should “submit” to anyone who happens to have been born male. I’m never getting married, and would never submit to or act inferior to a random man.”

Jim-
“Congratulations, Kathy. With that humble attitude, you are far more likely to attract a REAL man, and not just one of these sappy Betas that would settle for the kind of shit they’d get from tarnishedsophia there. Women with that sour, shitty, “I ain’t havin’ no man rule over ME! I ain’t submittin’ to NOBODY!”-type attitude are the ones that end up old, fat, and alone with ten cats, wondering why no quality man ever realized what a unique “catch” they were.”

Unfortunately, the conversation did not improve, so I’ll spare my readers the rest of the rather drawn out (and logically frustrated) discussion that was had that day. But I think the little bit I’ve shared is sufficient to go on…The fact that in a mere 4 sentences of opinion, this man who I’d never spoken to before believed he knew enough about me to classify me as the type of woman who’d willingly “give a man shit” and has a “sour attitude” speaks volumes. (He also confuses humbleness with submission, but that’s a topic for another post.) In other words, Jim conflates being a bitch with simply refusing to see oneself as submissive or needing to give more respect than is typical of casual everyday interactions with male strangers.

Again, I do not understand where this line of thought comes from. Namely, that unless someone born as a female necessarily acts subordinate to someone born as a male, she is deliberately being a “ball-buster”. To me, that’s as inane as saying any cis male who doesn’t hold the door open for a cis female is a raging misogynist. In my experience, people (of both sexes, no less!) simply aren’t as cut and dry as all that…I know that one can be polite, nice, and respectful to others without needing to act subservient.

At the time it really got under my skin, this boy who acted as though my one opinion (incorrectly read as it was) dictated exactly how I treat my lover. That just because I see no logical reason to live as a caricature of a 1950’s housewife, I must be a harpy who delights in testing and taunting my FwB. This, despite the fact that I rub his shoulders when he is upset, that I have never said “no” to sex, that I pay for close to 100% of our meals and entertainment…Heck, the fact that I’m always happy to hear his voice, even when he calls at 3am and wakes me from a sound sleep. Apparently being willing to listen to your lover’s problems and help them at any given moment is akin to “giving them shit”.

Or so one would assume, given Jim’s line of reasoning on this matter.

It’s just a notion that confuses me, and I fully admit that my lack of understanding could be due to the fact I also have trouble with understanding things like dating and subtle communication techniques. Anyone want to weigh in?

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47 thoughts on “Lack Of Submission = Being A Bitch?

  1. My ex husband said almost the same thing as Jim mentioned. But one thing for sure is that I am much more happier with myself and even the world, than I was with him. So I don’t actually mind being alone when compared to the alternative

  2. Technically, I voluntarily “submit” by being in the military. I suspect there tends to be a stereotypical view of the concept as being akin to slavery, which it is not. I have no problem following a good leader who is senior to me.
    In terms of bitchy and domineering wives/gfs/SOs, etc., I propose that there may (not certain) be a degree of truth to this in some cases. If one accepts that the basis of anger is fear, then we might posit that some of these women are plagued by unconscious fears in their relationships or lives in general. Hence they tend to be controlling, particularly in relationships.
    Likewise, there are men who are dominating and controlling, although far less that mainstream feminism would have us believe. Again I would suggest unconscious fear at the basis for this.
    Interestingly, in my unscientific conversation with female peers, they have always said that they would rather work for a male boss than a female boss. Perhaps there is a basis in truth to submission for the majority of relationships, but only in the sense that it is submission to being loved and cherished and protected. This would logically impose a burden of duty to care for, protect, and love on the male. And, it cannot be held to constitute a universal rule.
    In the final analysis, we must have the courage to bring love, respect, and understanding to our relationships. Not ideology or hatred.

  3. @Nav

    Yes, I think there is sometimes. I tried to cover that in my other post about submission. In some cases men are the submissive ones, in others women are, and in still others there is no submission whatsoever. Whatever works well for both partners should be what the couple does.

    As for male vs female bosses, I’ve had good and bad of both…I really don’t care what sex someone is, so long as they act in a professional manner.

    Those points aside, my question was really more along the lines of; Why do some guys believe that non-submissive female partners are automatically bitchy? It’s as though they believe that if your egalitarian in your relationship (or even the dominant one), then you MUST be a harpy. Obviously this isn’t the case, so why do they have these blinders on?

  4. A dominant female partner that is not domineering? Not resorting to emotional blackmail, digs at inadequate masculinity, deliberate misrepresentation of facts, character assassination? Frankly, does not compute.

  5. If we distinguish between non-submissive women and controlling women, those men who automatically dismiss non-submissive women as “bitchy” are probably controlling people themselves, and need excuses for those who won’t be controlled.
    It’s tough to generalize, and appearances can be deceiving in any specific circumstance.

  6. This, despite the fact that I rub his shoulders when he is upset, that I have never said “no” to sex, that I pay for close to 100% of our meals and entertainment…Heck, the fact that I’m always happy to hear his voice, even when he calls at 3am and wakes me from a sound sleep. Apparently being willing to listen to your lover’s problems and help them at any given moment is akin to “giving them shit”.

    Clearly you are a monster, Tarn. Ebul incarnate.
    Like the post, more tomorrow. Good night.

  7. @Nav

    That’s what I am trying to figure out. There is a very big difference between being controlling vs non-submissive…and yet certain people can’t (won’t?) admit this.

    Perhaps it’s the way they look at relationships? I look at them as the icing on the cake of one’s life…but if someone tries to make their entire life about being with a partner, I can see how they’d develop a need to be in control of it rather than enjoying it for what it is. It’s probably very scary to have no real control over something you feel is necessary for a good life…

  8. If you don’t have control, this implies that the other could leave you. Perhaps there are unconscious fears of abandonment or being found unworthy at play, which results in a controlling or at least defensive nature within the relationship.
    Hard to say. You’ve raised a goo question, though.

  9. @Nav

    Wish there was a way to ask these types of questions without putting people on the defensive…Answers are more important to me than changing someone’s mind.

  10. Agree completely. However, in a narcissistic Information Age , we’re apt to upset someone with rational inquiry into what should not be overly sensitive questions.

  11. Too true. I actually just answered a bunch of questions in an email sent by a reader. They were about my gender dysphoria, and were perfectly polite and acceptable…yet he prefaced the email by saying they could be “inappropriate”.

    That’s one thing I dislike greatly about such topics…there’s a standard of “It is not my duty to teach cis people about being trans/dysphoric” that floats around online. But if we don’t answer questions about a topic that directly frickin affects us…how the hell is anyone going to learn about it? You really shouldn’t be able to say something is offensive if you’re not willing to teach people *why* it’s offensive.

    This goes for just about any topic, imo.

  12. @Tarn
    Men are culturally conditioned to stop at certain point when gaining upper hand in a conflict (some will have problems with self control, but that will be evident in their interactions with other people as well). Women, not so much. If she is having sex on a regular basis with someone else (motivated by romance, “tingles”), and not sporadically (as a bargaining chip), then all bets are off. From the now on, everything that the poor schmuck is doing will be plain wrong and disgusting. There is nothing to salvage at that point.

  13. @Exfernal

    Okay…I’ll agree with you about the conflict thing, but what are you talking about when you say “sex with someone else” and “using sex as a bargaining chip”? That sounds like adultery. I’m just talking about either an egalitarian hetero relationship where neither partner is submissive OR one where the man is the helper to the wife. They *do* exist, check out the comments of my previous Submissive post.

  14. @Tarnished
    Are you trying to say that a dominant female partner will be loyal and faithful to a submissive male partner? By what rationale? His usefulness alone? Her personal values? Certainly not by his attractiveness.
    Do you estimate the behavior of people using yourself as a yardstick? For a woman, you are far from any stereotype, so your predictions are likely to be off base.

  15. @Exfernal

    Yes, her morality if nothing else. Perhaps her husband is a very physically attractive man…perhaps she’s the main breadwinner and he fulfills a much needed househusband role…perhaps she simply fell (and stayed) in love with a man who was more relaxed and enjoyed letting her take the lead in the family decision making. Maybe she grew up in a family where the father was a arrogant bastard and she finds submissive men attractive because they are the opposite, or maybe she grew up in a sexist religious household and finally enjoys having a partner who listens to her ideas. It could even be that they were initially egalitarian, but the roles changed to suit the family needs better because the man was awful at fulfilling his gender role.

    There are a plethora of reasons that a hetero couple might become reverse-Traditionalists. It certainly doesn’t happen very often, and I’m not arguing that it’s the best (I’d prefer equals in a relationship) or even that every couple should try it.

    All I’m saying is that it CAN work, if the couple agrees to it, just as traditional marriage can work if the couple agrees to it. It’s all about accepting that yes, there are patterns that *tend* to be true, but are not always at the individual level.

    If a family is healthy and happy with reverse gender roles, who is anyone to say that they’re “wrong”?

  16. When my ex and I got married, I requested the preacher drop the “obey” part of the traditional vows. The ex was always pointing his finger in my face reminding me I was to “obey” him, and I was always reminding him obey was not part of the vows. He demanded absolute submission in all things at all times. It was the worst, and then he added the injury to the insult and started throwing punches.
    I’m with you. I prefer a more equal distribution of power within a couple, which Jim would surely say is why I am still single, when in fact that’s my choice.

  17. Being argumentative beyond the facts (stubborn) is probably the issue. Bitch isn’t an exact term imho.
    Tarn,
    I’d expect a healthy relationship would be about achieving the best plan of action for the ‘team’. Whether one person or the other supplied the best plan might vary from scenario to scenario.
    If one generally brings the best thoughts forward, one might expect to be the de facto leader.
    Given your personality type and mine, I doubt we’d find ourselves the submissive. Which is probably for the best!
    The problems come when the dumb one wants to be in charge. It’s what made the marriage of my parents in law look like a nightmare scenario. She was not smart, over emotional and in charge.
    As you said up top, each couple should be free to have their own desired dynamic. I wouldn’t ever be the submissive, neither would you (pretty sure about that)

  18. I’ve always found this submission thing to be bullshit! If a couple chooses to follow the ideology that a man is the de facto leader and all must fall in line and obey. Personally I think that that is a vestige of the past and doesn’t have to me of course as relevant a place in today’s society as it did in our earlier times. Probably because of my thinking I cannot say why some men think that way.
    I personally want a partner who is on equal terms with me in terms of decision making, responsibilities etc. Who is so arrogant as to think they see things the clearest and that in execution they are always better than others around them or close to them?

  19. Jim capitalises words for emphasis and uses exclamations. You should inform him that this sort of emotional emphasis is a sure sign of a Beta male.

  20. @MrMary
    Yeah, Ol’ Big Nose is back, baby!
    I think I swiped a key accidentally on the touchpad and so screwed the wordpress login. It still let me post the comment, but refused to authenticate my latest selfie.

  21. @Melanie

    I like that. If my stance does a 360 and I decide to marry someday, I also wouldn’t have either of us “obey” the other. Then again, in a Handfasting ceremony one would hardly ever hear a vow like that anyway.

  22. @Spawny

    Oh, I can play at being submissive very well, and I enjoy caring for those I love which means performing actions that some would consider to be submissive. But a submissive personality in a relationship? Nope, not for me or you.

    I agree that there’s a huge difference between being argumentative to the point where your partner gives in just to make you shut up VS actually having the best plan of action for the partnership/family.

  23. @Master Beta

    If you think this excerpt is bad, you’d cringe to read the entire conversation. I doubt he’d care about being a beta anyway, as he says he’s a MGTOW.

  24. There is so much about the marriage ceremony that I disagree with – from the father “giving” the daughter to the vows of obey, or even for better or worse (seriously, there are some “worse” that aren’t worth any promise ever).
    I’m not familiar with Handfasting, so I did a quick little google. It looks beautiful, and simply about the love shared and not the pretense, the ceremony for the sake of ceremony.

  25. Re: Why do some guys believe that non-submissive female partners are automatically bitchy?
    ————————
    Because they are. Just as the males who act the same way – demanding, controlling and bad tempered – are called Bastards, Jerks and Pricks.
    How is the best way to handle non-submissive females? Just like a rattle snake by avoiding them as much as possible and letting them have their way when they can not be avoided and/or being hyper polite. Which just so happens to be the best way to handle the average male which is why I prefer to keep to myself as much as possible.

  26. @Poet

    Hmm, there are people of both sexes who are abrasive and generally unlikable, and I’d say a part of their personality is to be non-submissive. But at the same time you could be someone like myself; Non-submissive, yet still polite, kind, empathetic, and care about others.

  27. Politeness, kindness, empathy and caring for others is a form of submission in service to others.
    Non-submissive individuals on the other hand are self centered and demand that others submit to them out of a sense of entitlement.

  28. @Melanie

    Yeah, I agree. For the most part I can understand that it’s “tradition” and whatnot, but that doesn’t mean I (or anyone else) has to approve of or like it.

    I’ve only been to one Handfasting ceremony, but it has always stayed with me as being far more openly loving than the numerous church weddings I’ve attended. It’s certainly what I’d choose if I ever changed my mind about marriage.

  29. Some of your commenters seem to equate non-submissive with dominant. I think you can be non-submissive and neutral/equal too, just as a non-dominate could be neutral/equal in a relationship. Arg! Semantics!

  30. @JollyBlog

    Which is the issue I take with the idea that relationships somehow “require” there to be a dominant partner and a submissive partner. While I’m accepting of those (such as Liz) who enjoy marriages that are of the traditional type, or even ones that are reversed, I personally like my FwB relationship that is equal.

  31. I found this to be quite an interesting read. As for myself, I’m quite happy to submit to my wife and follow her lead. We agree on 95% of things, and well, on the other 5% maybe she’s right half the time and maybe i’m right half the time. But either way, it just feels right doing what she says. I’m even considering taking on her name instead of mine as way of recognizing to the world that she is the head of our family, our leader, and I’m her faithful helpmate! I admire her feminine energy, and after having lived in a patriarchal world for so long (and knowing how messed up it is), I gladly prefer a matriarchal relationship and family.

  32. @Uxorious

    Thank you for your input. I believe that so long as you and she are happy, and you raise any children in a loving/safe home, then a couple should do what is right for them. If this means bucking certain trends and traditions, so be it.

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