MGTOW Survey

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to give me some answers/information for a post I’m writing. It’s going to be called “MGTOW: From The Men Who Know Best” (edit: I’ve since changed this) and it covers the differences between what the media currently presents MGTOW as VS what it actually is.

Note that this is a safe-space blog, and derogatory slang towards either sex or gender will be edited/not allowed in any comments. Also, I am only collecting data about this till 7/24/2014 for another post, but every reader is still free to comment after this point.

The questions I have are;

1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway? Edit: Since MGTOWs can be married this sounds like a leading question, which I didn’t take into account when making the initial survey. Please either disregard, or only answer if you’re currently unmarried/separated/divorced. Thanks.

5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

7. How old are you?

8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

9. What is your level of education?

10. What ethnicity are you?

11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

As you can tell, some of these questions are just for statistical purposes (age, ethnicity, etc) and others are more for information gathering. As the past 2 months have seen a significant increase in the amount of people who reach my blog by searching for MGTOW-related terms and phrases, I want to give out more accurate information than what they may be finding from the mass media, and give a voice to MGTOW that doesn’t have any angle to it.

Note that when writing the actual post, I will only include usernames if specifically asked to.

If there’s any questions about this survey, please ask! I can be reached in the comments or through my Contact Me page for more private questions. I’m also cool with receiving responses via email instead of here in the comments. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to respond to my survey, whether in whole or in part.

Women and non-MGTOW men can certainly comment as well, or suggest questions/clarifications I might have missed. Please remember my Comments Policy though, and know that any hateful or bigoted remarks toward MGTOWs (or anyone, really) will not be allowed through.

If you wish to pass this survey along, I’m fine with linkage.

Results
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/08/02/mgtow-survey-results-part-1-demographics/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/mgtow-survey-results-part-2-opinions/

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118 thoughts on “MGTOW Survey

  1. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

    Men Going Their Own Way. It’s not hate or fear or sexism. Its a Man looking at the reality around him and determining what course is best for HIM, not his family not society, not the economy, not children, what is best for HIM.
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

    MGTOW IS the “marriage strike” or at least it’s largest aspect. But MGTOW is the marriage strike from the male perspective not the female perspective. It’s not about the lack of eligible bachelors willing and able to support women, it’s about not being the sucker that gifts half of all his hard work to a woman because she made a baby.

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?

    Yes and No. I would do the traditional marriage thing with a wife and kids and a steady job and all of that if the laws and society changed so that it’s what is best for ME.

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

    Single, never married.

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

    Yes and No. MGTOW isn’t moving in a common direction, there is no goal. It is men who have realized that marriage and relationships are toxic. It is like a herd of cats. If you try to herd cats some small number will go in the direction you herd simply because that is a direction it’s possible to go. That said such a small number of people in relationships are MGTOW that I doubt the claim for any one in a relationship.

    7. How old are you?

    33

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

    Rare casual hookups. I could do it MUCH more often if I wanted, but for the most part when I think about hooking up I think about all the drama that follows and decide that Video games or Painting my little army men would be much more fun long term.

    9. What is your level of education?

    BS-Computer Science

    10. What ethnicity are you?

    White

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

    It is no more sexist or bigoted than feminism. A great deal of both Feminists and MGTOW follow that path because of how badly they have been burnt. So many are hurt, but lashing out is not the core of either MGTOW or Feminism
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

    None

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

    It’s true NAWALT, but actual NAWALT are like married MGTOW. They probably exist, they theoretically exist, but I don’t actually know of any.

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

    Family law, Gender roles, Feminism
    Relationships and Marriage are not at their core bad for men. The laws and courts have changed so that there is no downside no risk no legal reason a woman would not want marriage. To do this Feminists have taken away almost every single upside from men, shifted all the risk to men, made it so there is little to no reason for men to get married.

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

    We have this, it’s called Feminism. Half or more of feminism is breaking women out of traditional gender roles so they can pursue their own happyness and go their own way. I very much support this half of feminism. The half of feminism I hate is the part that blames men and frees women at the expense of men.

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

    I’m building a squirrel trebuche, want to join?

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

    All day every day. Even when sitting by my self playing single player video games, I am still aware of the double standards and expectations because I have a penis. Not even trying to be a “Real Man” makes all of the traditionalists around me double down and try to “Fix” me even harder.

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

  2. Hello JollyBlog. Thank you for stopping by. MGTOW stands for Men Going Their Own Way. It’s a movement of sorts that overlaps (at least partially) with the concept of the “marriage strike”.

  3. Thank you, Nav! I just want these guys to get a fair shake, and sometimes opponents are more willing to listen to an egalitarian source. Unfortunate, but true.

  4. Take a deep breath. This one’s LONG.
    1. Men observing the reality of their situation for what it is, not through the intentionally skewed lens of culture. I only make this statement with regard to the United States of America; I’m not sure how prevalent the cultural skew is in other countries. I know that many European nations such as Italy have got their heads on a lot straighter with respect to how romantic relationships are understood.
    2. Since when’s it spoken of in the media? As far as I knew it’s only thanks to the Wild West of the Internet that the idea of men being unfairly treated in modern America has spread. Isn’t it in “the media’s” (read: mainstream newspapers and television networks) interest to sweep MGTOW under the rug? The best thing anyone in power can do is maintain (or strengthen) the status quo. Disruptive ideas, like those that fall under the umbrella of MGTOW, are in quite direct opposition to that goal.
    3. They are thoroughly intertwined, but only in the way that motorcar-owners and petrol-purchasers are tightly intertwined: there are plenty of other ways to power a car, and there are plenty of people who buy gas for reasons other than putting in their car. But what motivates a person to one in many cases motivates them to the other. Men Going Their Own Way is about DECIDING for one’s self what the best choices are, rather than blindly listening to what “society” and/or “conventional wisdom” SUGGEST/INSIST is the best choice. One of those suggestions is that “you ought to be married.” So people (some, obviously not all) get married because it’s in the script, not because it’s the best choice for them. The ‘marriage strike’ is about waking men up to the reality that maybe marriage *isn’t* automatically the thing to do. This movement has no doubt largely arisen from the fact that some women take advantage of the power imbalance in American marriage. Lysistrata withheld sex to get what she wanted, as it was the thing men wanted from her the most. Sex is to men as commitment is to women; that is to say it is the thing they want most. If men hold back their strongets bargaining chip, it will force women’s hands just as Lysistrata was able to with the men.
    4. The language of the question assumes that the two (not being MGTOW vs. being single) are definitively exclusive, which is not so.
    5. I’m 23, only a kid still. Never married or anything close to it.
    6. Nonsense. If MGTOW is about men making the best decisions for themselves, and a man decides that being married is the best thing for him, then clearly he’s both. The key is in truthfully evaluating a potential marriage and willfully deciding for himself that he wants it/that it’s in his best interest.
    7. Twenty-three years.
    8. Would [obviously] be interested in casual hookups given my station in life (young, uncommitted), but issues such as low self-awareness, and perfectionism that results in underconfidence, prevent such things. These are more fundamental and endemic to my personality, presently, and affect all aspects of life, not just romance & sex. That is to say that my awareness/thoughts about MGTOW and similar are separate from my romantic frustrations.
    9. Going to be graduating college in a week.
    10. White
    11. I see MGTOW as a bunch of people talking about the same thing, not as an organized “movement” (hence my hesitance to apply that word). People that think about these things casually post online once in a while, they don’t host rallies and conventions, so I don’t know what goes on inside the heads of other Men Going Their Own Ways. I’m sure most of them are levelheaded realists, and I’m also sure that some are irrational universal women-haters.
    12. None, formally, though all faith given w/o reason is religion, even if it isn’t called such. But if I *had* to give an answer, I guess I’d say “Frank Sinatra.” Or “Charles Darwin.”
    13. This is probably where the misogyny accusation comes from. When a man in this ‘sphere says “all women are like that,” he’s not (unless he’s Completely Missing The Point) saying “All women are nefarious, conniving, liars with no concept of loyalty who aren’t to be trusted,” he’s saying “All women are driven by hypergamy and the somewhat too-often-qutoed Briffault’s Law, and so if a man acts in such a way to breed contempt for him in a woman then she will leave him, regardless of the past.” In other words, it’s not her fault, it’s just the way women are. Surely some readers are now asking, “Well then isn’t *any* coupling impractical? Why would any man tie himself to a woman knowing that there’s this ever-present risk?” Well owning a Ferrari is impractical too, but people still do it. Someone buying an Italian sportscar knows when he’s buying it that every 500 miles it’s going to have to be tuned again, but he knows – confidently – that he can do that, and so he has no fear of not being able to operate the vehicle. Similarly, the man who knows it’s not about the past but it’s about who he is right now and who she perceives he will be in the future is the man who isn’t worried about his woman leaving him. He knows – confidently – that by continually attracting her and being the manly ying to her womanly yang he eliminates the risk of her leaving him for another man.
    14. I think this depends on how you personally define MGTOW. There are lots of buzz-words that fly around these corners of the ‘Net, ‘swallowing the red pill’ being among them. Despite the red pill/blue pill’s incredible over-usage, it’s a magnificently apt analogy. For me, I’ll [obviously] always be a man, and I’ll always go my own way, because that is the best way for me to go. Maybe that means I’ll get married, maybe I won’t. I can’t predict the future and have no desire to; the surprise is where all the fun comes from. If anything, what I’ve learned by looking behind the curtain and seeing the Wizard will increase my likelihood of marriage, as setting my own principles and living exclusively by those principles is far more attractive than kowtowing.
    15. Never heard of it; you should probably define it for us in your post. Though by Occam’s Razor I’d say, don’t they already? Isn’t that the motivating essence behind MGTOW?
    16. Good for them. I’m sure that, like many men, plenty of women get married just because it’s in the script. You’ve only one life to live, live it the way that makes you feel the best.
    17. Chivalry, a double-standard? That’s a new and fascinating way to frame it. Most acts I’d call “chivalrous” aren’t supplicating or even things I go out of my way to do, they’re just polite. On a daily basis I hold as many doors open for guys as for gals, which on a college campus is a whole lot. What I find most shocking, day-to-day, is just how tightly the wool’s pulled over the eyes of the unaware masses. Thing is, it’s not my job to impart knowledge to anyone else. If they seem like they’re pointing in this direction already and need a little help getting over the hill, I’ll lend a helping hand. But there’s no use trying to convince someone who won’t listen, “leading a horse to water” and all that. At the end of it all, you only ever owe people what you promise them, and I don’t promise anything to anyone who doesn’t deserve it. You’re allowed to hold others to a high standard if you hold yourself to at least the same standard. You should allow someone to prove their worth to you, but good people do that all the time through every action – it’s what they are.
    18. I think I’ve given you quite enough to chew on there. Cheers.

  5. @Erik

    Great to hear from you again, man. Congrats on college by the way.

    Fantastic responses too, and you brought up some points I didn’t even consider. Thanks for your input, as always.

  6. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

    For me: MGTOW is a stance of self-protection for men in a legal climate where marriage or even simple relationships can potentially lead to his being dispossessed or even in extreme cases, being imprisoned for failing to adhere to a system that has over-time morphed to one that unfairly advantages women, and actively discriminates against and disadvantages men. This stance is also supported by an attitude of self-reliance and caution in engaging in any contract over which the State might have some control over his finances, property or life. It is a very attentive approach to ensuring one’s independence by limiting one’s involvement in any circumstance where one might give mental, emotional, physical, financial, legal (etc.) purchase to another over his life. One might call it a dissociation from certain aspects of society accompanied by a certain degree of “social camouflage.”

    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

    I see very little mention of it, other than in circles that support it. MGTOW, by it’s very nature–Men Going THEIR Own Way–is a personal choice, and as such, another’s opinion of how I choose to live my life is my business, not another’s; their opinion means little more than their opinion on my taste in food.

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

    I think that the two are separate, but have a Venn Diagram-like overlap. I know of a number of men who refuse to marry, or to father children, yet do not associate with the term MGTOW. I know of no MGTOW, however, that advocate for State sponsored marriage.

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?

    Let us separate the term “single” from the term “non-married” or “never married.” I am of the latter kind, yet can enjoy a relationship of a carefully vetted and tested woman. Because of this approach, I’ve been very happy in relationships, and any precautions for my own life while imminently important are nothing more than an adult acknowledgement that humans are what they are and that things change. I don’t fear death, but have a testament, I don’t particularly fear a house-fire, yet have insurance.

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

    Never married.

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

    I agree with this. See #4.

    7. How old are you?

    40’s

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

    I “date” but only occasionally. Honestly, I enjoy the complete freedom that my life-style affords me. While I can enjoy the company of women, and occasionally hook up, I don’t seem to “move fast-enough” for this generation of women; I don’t indulge in one-night stands, mostly, because I don’t like them.

    9. What is your level of education?

    Undetermined auto-didactism and some college.

    10. What ethnicity are you?

    Caucasian.

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

    I see it often on-line, or perhaps it might be more accurate to say that I see men who resent their treatment by women and generalize. People mistake their pain and misinterpret their pain as being an accurate reflector of reality. I don’t believe that they are woman-haters, but injured. Most men who claim “All Women Are Like that” are in fact typically referring to relationship-available women, rather than say, familiy or friends. Of the number of MGTOW that I know personally, not a one demonstrate either fear, hatred or contempt for women as a class of people, and are in fact gynophiles and popular with women in general.

    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

    None.

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

    For the uninformed: NAWALT = Not All Women Are Like That; AWALT = All Women Are Like That.

    See #11

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

    Widely available (institutionalized) long-term, safe, effective and discreet contraception for men; that long-term relationships and parenthood somehow be contract-based, and that these contracts be legally enforced as being the primary factor for rulings in court, in other words, that pre-nuptual agreements be THE ruling factor, universally; that the State be utterly devoid of any power in affecting either men or women’s lives other than by the contract, with normal, non-loophole exceptions.

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

    It is both utterly sensible and yet, in most ways, unnecessary based on today’s legal climate.

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

    I value the company of women who have an utterly adult, self-responsible and genuinely independent mind-set and who acknowledge my own.

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

    They create MGTOW. This thought alone would require a number of lengthy and thoughtful posts to address properly.

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

    On a personal basis I’ll reassert that MGOTW is a response to the current legal and cultural atmosphere. A good number of men become MGTOW only after having been battered, harmed and injured by the aforementioned. “The marriage strike” is in fact little more than recoiling from past or potential pain inflicted by the woman-triggered State assault. MGTOW is much more however, is a life-style: that of a man being in charge of his own destiny and indifferent to the roles and faux-obligations that culture would wish to impose on him. The freedom and security that brings very often outweighs the need for monogamous relationships. One advantage that male have is that while we might wish to have children, we don’t have a biological clock that thunders at us. I do feel the loss at never having had children, but at no point did I ever have “baby rabies”. As MGTOW, one is free to choose who, how and when he chooses to be in relationship with. With time, the very notion of a single long-term relationship becomes almost nonsensical.

    Hope this helps.

  7. @Francis

    Nav is a witty one, that’s for sure. I’m lucky to have so many honest and learned commenters. 🙂

    But he’s correct in a way…I do try to give everyone a chance to explain their side and often find myself understanding where someone is coming from, even if I still don’t agree with them. I attempt to pass this empathy along on my blog and when I comment elsewhere…hopefully I’m successful more than not. 😉

  8. Mr. F. Roy’s answers were quite informative. I am inclined to agree with him, in that MGTOW is a rational RESPONSE to certain adverse social realities.
    BTW, Tarnished, I think it is we who are lucky to have you.

  9. @Nav

    Indeed. Francis is too humble to brag, but his mind is a wealth of experience and information…as are nearly all my wonderful readers. I will brag for all of you, see if I don’t. 😀

    And thank you for your kind words, Navigator. I daresay our little blogging community is quite awesome in it’s own right.

  10. @Something Witty

    I thought you might be interested in it. I’m going to wait 2 months from the date I published this post before using the data. That should hopefully give people enough time to respond.

    Of course, I’d encourage guys to tell their story even after the “cut off”. I firmly believe that talking about injustices is the first step to overcoming them. That, and it’s good for one’s psyche if the hurt suffered is acknowledged and not simply swept under the rug.

    It’s my belief that a lot of the anger found in parts of the Men’s Rights crowd stems from being told that their problems don’t matter or can be solved by “manning up”.

  11. > It’s my belief that a lot of the anger found in parts of the Men’s Rights crowd stems from being told that their problems don’t matter or can be solved by “manning up”.
    Anger is an appropriate response when one’s grievances are summarily dismissed, and especially when that legitimate anger is subsequently used as a political weapon to discredit a whole demographic with similar grievances.

  12. @Ithit

    Absolutely. Being told time and again that a very real issue that negatively impacts your life (daily or otherwise) is “fake” or “exaggerated” would make anyone angry. Anger is an appropriate response, but not irrationally focused anger or anger that clouds one’s judgment. The way to change society for the better is to spread the word, hold debates, get mrm clubs allowed alongside feminist clubs in colleges, stop forcing people into constricting gender roles, acknowledge that both sexes need help for rape and DV survivors, etc.

  13. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    The words say it all. Men going their own way. I have been active in the manosphere since DGM-2 days. (Well, actually since the mid-60′s, but the Internet did not exist in those days.) And, from the very first, men who called themselves MGTOW have insisted men must toe the line if they are going to call themselves MGTOW. I find no difference between the lack of freedom in the traditional roles pressed on men, and the roles pressed on men by MGTOW. You are either finding your own way, or you are not. Taking a pre-written plan created by someone else for your own is not finding your own way.
    MGTOW can include being married; being celibate; I suppose being a PUA, though I do not personally relate to that; expatting; or what my board calls inpatting. (Dropping out of the system, while staying in the USA.)
    It seems every organization experiences a few people trying to take over and force their views on everyone. An example is the large number of churches based on the Bible which announce that any use of alcohol is sinful, though Paul specifically says that a cup of wine every day is good for your body.
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    I pay not much attention to it. The MSM is merely attempting to discredit any part of the manosphere in any manner they can. Otherwise known as politics as usual. Look at their attempt to do a deliberate hatchet job on Paul Elam.
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    I started a 10,000 hours of activism and counseling divorced men, in 1984. Due to marital rape laws and child support rules and no-fault divorce, I said publicly in 1985 that no intelligent man should marry in that legal environment. I did not meet my first vocal marriage striker until around 1995.
    I had married my Mexican wife in 1975. It made no sense to divorce her in 1985 to avoid divorce. To my surprise, here I am, soon married 38 years, and retired in Mexico in her native village, the ultimate MGTOW lifestyle.
    Even though I believe MGTOW includes marriage, by definition I think few MGTOW will marry. The only reason I did was I married before conditions for MGTOW became apparent.
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    If I were a widower, I would never under any condition ever marry again. In Mexico, you have Union Libre, Free Union. The difference between that and shacking up is Free Union is considered true marriage by most Mexicans. Akin to Old Testament marriage, where no government documents are involved but you and your family and neighbors all view you as truly married in God’s eyes.
    Being married to a Mexican women has placed me in an excellent niche, where I am viewed as part of the extended family in my village. But, if my wife passed on, I would not be tossed out of the extended family. Not even if I took to myself a woman 50 years my junior. Here, once you are accepted as part of the family, your fortune is made!
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Married 38 years.
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    Here in Mexico they use the world, tonteria. Foolishness. As I said earlier, this is another case of a group stating you can only be part of the group by adhering to the consensus. By definition, MGTOW means going your own way.
    7. How old are you?
    72.
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    N/A
    9. What is your level of education?
    Four year college, CPA
    10. What ethnicity are you?
    Mixed European.
    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    A commenter above said it very well. There are people injured by our society and it’s legal minions, and they have righteous anger. In fact, it takes a lot of nerve to even bring up the word misogyny in a society which has the level of misandry that ours does.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    Private Bible based.
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    MarkyMark said it very well some time ago. We all know Not All Women Are Like That. The problem is, women who aren’t like that seem to be unable to make their views visible enough, so we men simply can’t tell which is which, without putting our very lives on the line in marriage 2.0. So, we must assume for survival that Women are all like that. And, that is sad.
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    I think we all know the issues that cause men to drop out and take care only of themselves. First, it is unlikely that anything will be fixed before the collapse which is coming.
    Second, if women ever realize MGTOW have valid complaints, they may well ask for us to tell them, just as you have done, what we need fixed to bring us back to marriage 1.0.
    And if we tell them A, B, and C. they will give us 5% of A; 5% of B; and 5% of C, then tell us, “Okay we gave you what you asked for. When is the wedding?”
    And, while they are giving us 5%, they will sneak in D; E; and F to make things worse for us.
    It would take a complete repealing of almost all law changes in the last 50 years and I assure you every comma and semi-colon will involve a “fight to the death.” Plus the minute they got us back in chains, the laws would be changed right back again.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    Of course, there are women in that operating mode. Names like Clara Barton and Louisa May Alcott come to mind. However, certain elements of our society are trying to belittle male rebellion by claiming it is women who have turned their backs on marriage, because we men are so undesirable. I always tell them, Yep, you are right. that is why I see men in the supermarkets looking furtively to see if anyone is watching, then sneaking a copy of GROOM magazine onto the belt, because he is dreaming of his big day. [/sarcasm]
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    Better they stay single and celibate if that is what they want from life. Why not? Why would it even be a topic of discussion, except to cater to those who want to convince us that it is women who are causing the marriage strike?
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    When I come back to the States, I conduct myself as if I am in enemy territory, because I am. I work hard to avoid any contact, but especially any conflict with any American woman. I am well aware that any conflict whatsoever with any woman, no matter how much provoked by her, will put me in jail with an arrest record, not beneficial to my immigration status in Mexico.
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

  14. @Anon age 72

    This is great information, especially from one so experienced. Thanks for stopping by and sharing it.

    I am very interested in what you say about being brought back to Marriage 1.0. I’m of the opinion that society in general will never go back to this point, but could reach a Marriage 3.0 stance where the laws are far more fair/less hazardous to men than they are under the current 2.0 system. I for one don’t care on an individual level…I’m not celibate, but I am happily single at age 30 and not desirous of marriage myself. I’d rather just want it to be safe for my friends and brothers.

    I also don’t believe single women are causing the marriage strike. For starters, I’m the only happily single woman I know in my own life, and it’s pretty common knowledge that more females want marriage than males. Secondly, women who *are* like me aren’t “on strike”…we know there are awesome, good, eligible men out there. We just don’t see the need for that type of relationship, whereas I have found decently sized online communities of menfolk who actively disengaged from finding partners due to the troubles associated with the unequal laws of today. I recognize the privilege I have as a female-bodied American citizen in this regard, even as I speak out against it.

  15. > Anger is an appropriate response, but not irrationally focused anger or anger that clouds one’s judgment. The way to change society for the better is to spread the word, hold debates, get mrm clubs allowed alongside feminist clubs in colleges, stop forcing people into constricting gender roles, acknowledge that both sexes need help for rape and DV survivors, etc.
    I agree thoroughly. Dismissing or silencing either side is not the way to move forward. Sadly, we’re at a point where one side holds all the power and seems to be trying to squash the other side without proper discourse.
    Now, rather than comment without addressing your initial questions, I’ll do so:
    > 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    Living as I choose. It’s very simple, but there are a number of social pressures leading me to a life that I simply don’t want. I’m hesitant to label myself MGTOW, but my lifestyle from before the acronym was devised fits it too well.
    > 2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    I don’t really follow the media as it’s typically biased to the point of uselessness. That said, I couldn’t care less how people react to my life choices. It’s none of their business. Even if they talk about it, it won’t change anything as concerns me.
    > 3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    As mentioned already, MGTOW doesn’t solely constitute a marriage strike, but often includes such a component. Men rejecting marriage are more likely to look for other reasons for living that will lead to more of a MGTOW attitude though.
    MGTOW is a reaction to the unfair pressures society places on men. One might even compare it to very early feminism in terms of recognizing that there’s a problem and finding a workable solution. Eschewing marriage when marriage is clearly a raw deal is one such solution.
    > 4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    I’m perfectly content with my life as it is. I lived this way before MGTOW existed, but I cannot honestly say I’ll always have the same life goals. However, for the foreseeable future I’ll continue as I have. I don’t suspect the law will change so drastically that I’m encouraged to change my path as concerns relationships.
    > 5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Never married.
    > 6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    I disagree with many MGTOW in that I feel that if marriage is part of going your own way, it counts. However, marriage at present constitutes slavery for men as you can’t get out without significant harm, so I understand the perspective that MGTOW and marriage are mutually exclusive.
    > 7. How old are you?
    30s
    > 8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    I’m not sure the question covers all of the bases. I avoid relationships as appropriate when there’s a noticeable potential of risk involved…if that makes sense. It very much depends on the situation. It would be unfair to avoid relationships entirely, but I’m very cautious.
    > 9. What is your level of education?
    College.
    > 11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    Misogyny exists, but I think the word has lost its meaning by being thrown around all willy-nilly. In my experience, the majority of MGTOW are disillusioned and distrustful, but not truly hateful.
    > 12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    I was raised Methodist, but stopped going to church when I had the option because it was boring. I’ve since studied many religions and ultimately decided that I don’t care for religion, but also don’t discount the possibility of a deity. I suppose that makes me an agnostic.
    > 13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    Tough question. It’s very much dependent on the individual. NAWALT, yes. AWALT, to a certain extent due to instinct. I’m still on the fence, and thus judge each woman independently, with the caveat that current legislation encourages AWALT.
    > 14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    MGTOW is living how I want. Anything that changes this would place shackles on me. So I guess there’s nothing that could change to make me give up my freedom. However, if you want to focus on marriage itself rather than MGTOW (which seems to be the conflation implied by your questions), I’d say fair legislation that doesn’t make me a slave to a woman’s whims would be a good start.
    > 15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    Bring it on. Freedom of choice without being shamed is the ideal, isn’t it?
    > 16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    What I think is irrelevant. If I’m being fair, judging others for living how they want while expecting no judgment from living how I want is sheer hypocrisy.
    > 17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    I can’t say it affects me in any significant manner.

  16. Just curious Tarnished, do you live in a city, town, suburbs, country???? I ask because I have many women of my acquaintance who do not have any wish to marry. Several in long term relationships, some with children, who have no desire to get married. I’ve met their partners and many say they’d marry if the woman was interested but since she’s not, their happy with being in a monogamous relationship.
    I have to admit, I find this incredibly romantic. Maybe I’m a sap, but I think there is something so amazing and romantic about waking up next to the same person for 20+ years and knowing there is nothing legal tying them there. They are just there because they love you and want to be.

  17. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    Simply Men taking control over all aspects of their lives
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    Mainstream media avoid it – and that is just fine with me.
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    Separate but overlapping to those who wish to stay single.
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    I think either one takes work. It is all about what results you want.
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Divorced. ( surely there is another word for this! I am not defined by it..)
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    Untrue in theory, as it is against MGTOW.
    7. How old are you?
    Mid 40′s
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    Presently avoid, but to me that should be the normal.
    9. What is your level of education?
    Degree. Trade.
    10. What ethnicity are you?
    Anglo-Norman
    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    Men are injured by modern relations. They are in a grieving process, and it eventually subsides to indifference soon enough. The anger is a necessary healing outlet, and it needs to be seen with a pinch of mercy and compassion.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    Orthodox Christianity.
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    Both AWALT/NAWALT and AMALT/NAMALT are true and untrue at the same time, rather the tension between them all contains the active truthful application. I have a daughter, and she is raised well.
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    The death of Marxism really. Once there is no root for any revealed truth, it is a slippery slope into the abyss.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    To the most part, it is a direct result of the marriage strike and mgtow. It only occurred afterwards, and it is the most true measure of the effectiveness of mgtow.
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    As long as they pay their own way, and not expect men to keep them in luxury by drawing from our taxes, just like any other single man – welcome!
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    Not such any more. I live in Australia where the sheilas are outright terrifyingly terrible in behaviour. You avoid them like the plague.
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    In honesty we mgtowers do not hate women, and we are not misogynists. We are real feeling hurting human beings with normal and good sensitivities, we are injured, hurt, healing, healed, indifferent, wary of women, but in general, if you get to know us we are really gentle, good natured blokes. Give us the benefit of the doubt. You may even like us!

  18. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    > That i live my life to serve my interests first and foremost, disregarding whatever role ‘society’ et large deigns to designate for me (the married, 2.5 children consumer debt riddled slave to a job to buy shit i can’t afford to work more to pay for things i can’t afford and to keep being the good monkey and pay my high income taxes to support social welfare programs that enable terrible societal behavior like rampant single motherhood sucking on the largess of the states teet) I am free from all obligation to greater society at large and able to concentrate solely on my own personal developments and goals, not needing to put them aside to ‘man up’ and become a responsible wage slave and pop out more consumers to a wife who may easily destroy my life when she becomes ‘unhaaaaaaapy’. I do not have to put my dreams or desires on hold to dutifully sacrifice for the family unit the government depends upon for ‘growth’. I have no incentive to engage in the risk of marriage because the rewards to not exceed the potential risks.
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    > Indifferent. Men going their own way is a phenomenon that is taking place regardless of what society or individuals or mass media portray it as. Shaming has no effect, water off a ducks back. If it is portrayed positively in the media, great. If not, doesn’t concern me one bit.
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    > Definitely overlapping because the majority of these men would have been married if there weren’t – 1. so many legal landmines placed before them and 2. available women who presented themselves as ladies/women worth marrying and who weren’t off chasing the top 20% of men ignoring the ‘invisible’ men who would be intent on marrying. Incentives matter. Marriage must be palatable. In it’s current form it is not.
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    > MGTOW can be in a meaningful relationship. I myself am in one. I simply will not accept becoming legally entangled or playing russian roulette with the system again. I can continue a wonderful long term relationship without the weight of marriage. This incentivises both parties to try harder and not expect anything out of obligation. If any one party stops trying or begins to expect entitlement without reciprocation – the other is free to move on without the messy complications of divorce. There is no Sword of Damocles hanging over the head of MGTOW when they feel a relationship has run it’s course.
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    > Legally Separated > will divorce if the ex wants to re-marry and pay the full cost of the divorce costs since i paid the full cost of the separation costs.
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    > You can’t be MGTOW and married. You might think so, you might think you’re in control. But there is a term in engineering called ‘borrowed time’. Where a structure has lost enough support and is in danger of failure, not a matter of if but when. This is what all marriages under marriage 2.0 are.. borrowed time. Dalrock has wrote many essays regarding the THREATPOINT in which at any given moment, a woman need only succumb to her feelings, her peer groups non acceptance of her husband, or her hypergamy (as Rollo is fond of saying, Hypergamy doesn’t care) and everything the dutiful and oblivious husband who thought he had everything under control is now at the mercy of the state, lawyers, and exwife who now has incentive to rake you for all you’re worth. You cannot truly be going your own way when you are in virtual shackles and have a gun pointed at your head.
    7. How old are you?
    > 37
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    > Steady LTR. I avoided shitty / toxic women, and filtered for a woman who is agreeable to the MGTOW lifestyle. It was my MGTOW mindset that was the catalyst for my filtering. Being redpill aware gave me the tools needed to filter for the traits i desired without compromise. And being MGTOW allowed me to choose at my leisure on my own time, no pressure to have to ‘be with someone’ for the sake of being with someone.
    9. What is your level of education?
    > College dropout.
    10. What ethnicity are you?
    > Cock Asian. 😛
    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    > I would say that is a fair statement, tho qualified by the fact that no one is born misogynistic, they are driven that way. From my post Cows to be led to slaughter as a euphamism for the current SMP
    “Misogyny.
    My spellchecker knows what it is.
    Misandry.
    I have a red wavy line running under it right now.
    Both are real, but i imagine how they are reached often by two completely divergent paths. One is through educated hate and indoctrination in college and university study classes and groupthink. One is through life experiences of emotional trauma and upheaval when the pretty lies shatter and rain down like a thousand cutting daggers, where ultimately the matrix experiences a system crash.
    I’ll let you take a moment to figure which points to which.”
    Most of the misogyny is a direct result of these men finding out harsh truths about the world they were unaware of, unable to handle or digest, usually on the worst day of their life. Most men find the sphere and become MGTOW due to an external factor like being frivorced by their soulmate or taken to the cleaners and losing their house/kids/lives. It is understandable that some of these men are bitter. They just lost their entire world as a direct cause of the actions of women they viewed in a whole different light. As these stories are repeated over and over again in MGTOW forums and mouth to mouth.. the predictable pattern and alarming frequency of these events happening precisely the same way – men blindsided – leads them their deductive reasoning that women are in fact the cause of their problems and best be avoided. Men experience the trauma and then have it validated by other men’s direct experiences. Women are taught to hate and fear men in academia and womens studies, and are predisposed to inflict misandry because of the gynocentric culture we live in that puts the feminine as primacy and the masculine to be subverted to the feminine imperative.
    It’s no wonder misogyny blooms. This isn’t your early 1900′s misogyny.. it’s a new breed reacting to today’s women’s behavior.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    > Zilch
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    > NAWALT is real, but generalizations exist and biological mechanisms of attraction and evolutionary psychology affects everyone more or less the same way, outliers aside. AWALT wrt to Hypergamy and being hypergamous. NAWALT since some are aware of their own hypergamy and seek to control it instead of let it freely reign over them.
    AWALT – a car bursts into flames trapping a passenger inside. Civilians gather around. Most likely the women will scream towards the men in the crowd to not just stand there but do something.
    NAWALT – a woman in the crowd has training the emergency services and gets a fire extinguisher out of her car, puts out the fire in the cabin and drags the driver out.
    AWALT – given the free choice to enter the occupation, no women currrently can be seen working on oil rigs, high rise construction or road works.
    NAWALT – the odd few women you will find in those fields are Tom-boys who enjoy getting dirty and achieving at a physical man’s level.
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    > No fault divorce abolished. Equal visitation rights for both parents. No lifetime alimony, temporary stopgap at most. You must give men a reason to believe that the sacrifice of not going their own way and instead utilizing all their time and effort on building and raising a family will not be destroyed on a whim and enforced by the state. There must be a reward for that sacrifice that is greater than the freedom of going their own way. Marriage 1.0 made a man the head of the family and responsible for that family. That’s out the window now. I’m not sure ‘equitable’ marriage is incentive enough. Women have had over-equitable marriage for a while now and still blow it up, still eschew it for years while they party away their youth.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    > The Captain wrote something about that a long time ago, i agree with his assessment.
    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.ca/2012/02/mgtow-vs-wgtow.html
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    > This isn’t about individuals, i don’t have the answers. Of course these women are free to do as they please. But we as a society cannot believe that their actions exist in a vacuum. The proportion of women who remove themselves from the marriage market short or long term directly effects society equal to that percentage. If marriage is still the expected path for men to acquire sexual relationships with women (men who are not alpha womenizers who can circumvent the rule), the more women that drop out early on to chase alpha’s skews the sex ratio. We all know what happens when there are more males than females at a given time. More aggression, more turbulence, more instability in that society. Men will fight for access to women. If we assume the conservative rule that 60% of women go after 30% of the top men.. that means there is only 30% women to the 70% of men not mating.
    No one can force women to start marrying earlier or seeking out relationships with men they aren’t tingling for. But looking at the big picture – if men and woman can’t hit the 1-1 ratio of sexual access close enough.. trouble will arise. Why do you think the Chinese are so afraid of their sexless men that they truck in thousands of migrant women on easy visa’s? A sexless male populace is one ripe for revolt.
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    > They don’t. I bitch about it on forums and Facebook, and on my blog. But that’s about it. It rarely affects my daily life in any meaningful way. I’m chivalrous to my girl, but she earned that by playing the part of a lady worthy of it. I grant basic courtesy to most everyone, but do not give out blanket respect. It has to be earned. I am not afraid of calling out double standards where i see them in public or argue them in passing conversation or debate. The only double standard i could say remotely affects my life is reproductive rights, and the fact i have no options besides condoms or abstaining. I would LOVE to have the reversible vasectomy injection. I’d get the snip in a heartbeat but have read of a small percentage of people having debilitating side effects and pain after getting one, so im not willing to chance a vasectomy unless it’s easily reversible back to original factory conditions. I would take a pill every day if needed. I want to enjoy sex as much as women are freely allowed to. My girl is not on BC because every pill she tried plays havoc on her.
    My ability to control when i ejaculate is my birth control.
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    > As Warren Farrell often says, as humans evolved, there was no patriarchy, we weren’t assigned roles based on our sex organs, we were given responsibilities according to those who performed those roles better. Sexual dimorphism. Biology. Evolution. Marriage was a key part of that, producing a 1-1, everyone gets a shot at mating, everyone works together for the common good, everyone works for a future because they are rewarded for their efforts. Feminism gave women license to walk away from the ‘woman’s’ roles and marriage, delaying marriage creating a starving class of men, and taking away all reward or reason for marriage.. no one batted an eyelash. Men decide to walk away from their ‘male’ roles, obligations and marriage.. everyone loses their shit. Oh look, i should have added that to the double standard list.

  19. I’d like to add that Roosh has coined an interesting Theory called Cultural Collapse, the first 4 points of which directly relate to what i was speaking of in regards to the reward structure of marriage/family towards men. While i abhor religion, it’s purpose as an instrument to ensure an equal 1-1 ratio of available mates and the rewards and status bestowed upon a family man were intrinsic in keeping society’s cohesion intact. His theory is worth reading and injecting into this discussion. Remember MGTOW is a ‘reaction’ to 1st action – women abandoning their roles as women in society, and delaying marriage to the point where it was not viable.
    http://www.rooshv.com/cultural-collapse-theory

  20. I got into this whole corner of the ‘Net (as I’m sure many have) from M3′s article “Confessions of a Reformed Incel,” and his style – what at first seems brash but is really just unapologetically calling ‘em as he sees ‘em – kept me hooked. I think your points in no. 13 and no. 18 are particularly on-point.

  21. @M3

    Thank you so very much for adding your input! As the first MGTOW I ever “met”, I’d have felt incomplete without having your opinions here. 🙂

  22. 1. It’s quite simple, really. The definition of MGTOW is perfection (go ahead – replace their acronym MGTOW below with any other self-defining characterization, gender, race or gender identity and you’ll see what I mean – it is perfection):
    “M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way – is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t.”
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    I think most people realize that MGTOW are the wave of the future for men (lest ye live under de rock). Like feminists, MGTOW want out of their traditional/patriarchal roles. Feminism – in some ways – helped MGTOWs escape the patriarchy. That’s not to say that feminism doesn’t still have a ton of patriarchal and hence gynocentric longings for the old days (like the MRAs). Both the patriarchy and gynocracy suck. MGTOW get this. MRAs dont. Again – I’m not trusting the feminists – but I’m agreeing with their premise – that gender roles suck butt.
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    Traditional marriage has been destroyed by patriarchal and gynocentric values. The patriarchy is the big, incestuous brother to gynocentric (hence feminist) beliefs. Feminists depend (dare I day demand) that the White Knights defend their gynocentric, male provided rights. Women would die a slow, painful death tomorrow if the white knights failed to defend them from the lower rungs of the patriarchy (not from American lower rungs of the male patriarchy – but foreign dictatorships).
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    I never though I’d end up as a MGTOW. I didn’t even know what MGTOW meant until middle age. Now that I am one – there’s no going back. One you go MGTOW…
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Divorced.
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    Oh yeah. There are tons of married guys on the MGTOW blogs. Some are happily married but anticipating the day that they’ll get screwed. Others are married and warning the younger guys not to get married. Others are married and happily so, yet they don’t understand why younger guys would get married based upon the current legal climate regarding marriage.
    7. How old are you?
    Too young to die – too old to be a virgin (and I’m not).
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    I want nothing to do with intimate relationships. You have false DV, false rape and false harassment to worry about these days. Once I figured out that all problems in my life were initiated from within intimate relationships – I ejected.
    9. What is your level of education?
    Masters
    10. What ethnicity are you?
    Caucasian
    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    That’s BS. You have some real, definable hate from the newer MGTOW, but their hate eventually turns into enlightenment, which is anticipated and respected within MGTOW. The same happens with MRA groups. You start out hating – you end up wiser. MGTOW are very selective in whom they allow in. If you’re a violent type, you won’t pass muster with that crowd. I did however hear that the PUAs are a bunch of rat ba$tards. Just saying.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    I hope that there’s a God, but from what I’ve seen, I doubt it.
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    Every single NAWALT is an AWALT waiting to happen. Just like every single guy will likely go for the younger, prettier woman. NAWALT vs AWALT vs OLDER WOMEN vs YOUNGER WOMEN is all about screwed up human nature. Men and Women will be bad no matter how hard they try to convince you otherwise! Since most “love” is based upon how one’s ego and self-esteem are inflated as a consequence of a current relationship – a potential future relationship that provides higher self esteem and ego boosts will negatively impact both male and female perspectives on present relationships.
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    None. Humans are too screwed up. The only reasons marriages and relationships lasted in the past were societal constructs and expectations. Without those former constructs and expectations, most relationships will be doomed to failure. Only the wealthy and beautiful will be married in fifty years.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    No problems with that. I thought that was why so many women were having kids out of wedlock now. It’s 40% overall and 72% for AAs, right?
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    I’ve been in relationships with women all of my life. After being out of relationships with women for a few years, I can’t imagine ever going back to living with someone. If that’s how single women feel – then I agree with them.
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    I never practice chivalry. I did all through my younger years – but refuse to do it now. I can’t stand that I’m expected to act differently towards women than men. We live in the age of equality and women should no longer expect chivalry from men. Women now make up half the workforce and want the best paying and most prestigious jobs for themselves. It seriously irks me when women complain about chivalry or the lack of quality men in the “dating pool”. This attitude can now be perceived as female chauvinism and female sexism. And I’m a high earning, single, successful male.
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    NA

  23. @ManGoing

    Spectacular answers, just as I knew they would be. In spite of myself, I have to agree with you about human nature…as a species we are pretty horrible (men and women alike) though we are also capable of such goodness. Truly, homo sapiens are a walking contradiction. I try so hard to be optimistic about us, yet then I watch shows like “What Would You Do” and am disappointed in the 95% who walk by and do nothing to help their fellow wo/man. It’s difficult to see the glass as half full when you’re not even entirely certain there’s water in it at all…

  24. @Sophia
    I hear ya. But marriage has been declining rapidly for the past 40+ years. Out of wedlock births have been going down the same road. Men need women and kids need men. Women just need women (so they think). The trap must spring before clarity comes. This has always been the way. It will get worse before people see. It will be too late then. After that, the cycle will begin again. Think of winter and spring. That’s how life really works.

  25. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    MGTOW is the arena of discussion long needed by modern men, one by men for men, in the same way that women have evolved for themselves through the thoughts of Germaine Greer and Betty Friedan and others who sought to free women from patriarchy. It has long been my view that men need the same thing, only it couldn’t happen until women achieved their freedom. As those in MGTOW who complain most vehemently against women today rant about, that achievement has happened. We men need to see that as a good thing, but it’s only good if we don’t Play House and take the marriage bait.
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    I don’t hear much of MGTOW in the media. I do, however, hear the slurs and slanders among self-entitled women who aren’t getting men to Play House.
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    Separate while overlapping. MGTOW doesn’t begin to address the reasons young men in Japan and the UK are avoiding taking the marriage bait. It also doesn’t address the independent attitudes my own sons have adopted in their avoidance of the traditional dating rituals.
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    I didn’t start out being MGTOW. I was put there by my peers for reasons I won’t go into here. I adapted to my environment, though much too late to avoid the pitfalls of social expectations.
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Married with grandchildren.
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    Some of us awaken to reality through the marital experience. Stressful abuse ends up generating a desire to end the pain.
    7. How old are you?
    Older than dirt.
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    It’s complicated.
    9. What is your level of education?
    Some college.
    10. What ethnicity are you?
    EuroAmerican
    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    I agree. It shows in those who express a desire to dominate and subjugate women and put them under personal control. My attitude is that to do so only makes a slave out of the enslaver.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    None.
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    I watched both of my sisters get “wife-trained” by my mother, and then heard the same lessons presented to my daughters. I thus am more inclined to believe AWALT than NAWALT.
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    A. Men have to take responsibility for their own lives and behaviors. Even Peter Pan had to grow up someday.
    B. I’m all for women growing up and taking responsibility for their own lives and behaviors. Prince Charming and the castle and happily ever after are myths.
    C. Societal “traditions” regarding what is or is not a real relationship have to end. Who one loves (and how one does so) are only the business of those involved.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    I support the idea, for women just might discover how to make themselves happy without having a man to blame when it doesn’t work out.
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    They are more honest than the ones who only seek to capture a man and convert him into a personal servant.
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    I hold doors open, and I allow women to respond in kind if they so choose. I find it interesting that younger women are more likely to do so.
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    Many years ago, I read an interview with Katharine Hepburn in Life Magazine (ask Granny, kiddies!). In that interview, she declared that men and women shouldn’t live together, but should be close neighbors and visit each other often. The longer I’ve been alive, and the longer I’ve Played House, the more I realize she had the right idea.
    PS – I didn’t read any of the other responses before I wrote this. I return to the top to do so now.

  26. Blurkel, so nice to hear from you! Thanks for adding your knowledge.

    I’m actually quite interested in this “wife training” you mention. While my mother gave very Traditional advice to my sisters (expect to have kids, marry a wealthy man, higher education is nice but not necessary, etc) I did not receive any of it. Perhaps she knew I was…different…but my mom always pushed me to go above and beyond academically. She took for granted that I got into the National Honors Society, and it was assumed I would go to college for a Bachelor degree if not a Master’s (no MBA yet, but before I’m 35, Gods willing).

    Would you go into this topic a little more? It sounds curious and manipulative at once.

  27. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    Freedom and control of self.
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    Is it? Oh no, the media’s coming…RUN!
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    Why is it either? It’s been said elsewhere and I wholeheartedly agree that the use of the term “strike” is misleading. Strike assumes a person is fighting for better pay and conditions at a job and when they get those met or concessions are made that they would happily go back to work. I intend to remain happily unemployed. Don’t care if the company goes under.
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    If I value my freedom then I’ve got to go my own way.
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Never married = happily unemployed.
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    Those that still work for the company can say they are MGTOW and even act that way (as they have gone their own way in a sense) but how are they free; they’re still employees.
    7. How old are you?
    Late 30′s
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    Overall avoidance with momentary lapses into hookups.
    9. What is your level of education?
    Been through a couple of universities and have dropped out of a few.
    10. What ethnicity are you?

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    People are free to think what they want to think so long as they do not hurt another person. I don’t care.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    None.
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    I only look at individual behaviour and judge people based on that. But then again, if I know a shark will behave in a certain way, do you think I would take the risk of swimming in their environment?
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    I have no intention of being employed by the company.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    Don’t they already do by “having it all”?
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    It’s their choice. Just don’t ask me to contribute to that choice or to save anyone from the consequences of that choice.
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    They don’t and even when they do it is met by slight annoyance but mainly indifference. Besides, aren’t we all supposed to be equal?
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    Enjoy the decline….

  28. Hello there, Elagabalus. Thanks for answering the survey. It’s much appreciated.

    I especially liked your running analogy…comparing marriage to a company? Yup, pretty much one I’d never work for either. Freedom is preferable.

  29. @ Tarnished

    “Wife training” is every bit as curious and manipulative as you suspect. It isn’t at all similar to those traditional comments given to your sisters. It is everything about how to manipulate a man into “behaving properly” as she defies it for herself.

    It’s all about using sex as a Pavlovian reward system.

    It’s all about having total and exclusive control over the household income.

    It’s all about making all of the important decisions prior to even notifying him that a decision is in the works. He’s to be “persuaded” by any and all means that he’s making the already-decided points as if he’s actually participating in the process.

    It’s all about ensuring that she can separate him from influencing his kids if she chooses to do so – even if divorce isn’t impending.

    It’s all about keeping his ego under control so that he doesn’t get the idea that he has any rights.

    It’s all about keeping him on the leash of predictability.

    One of the most blatant episodes I ever witnessed happened to my brother-in-law. He and his wife-to-be lived with my mother-in-law. BIL was especially chipper one morning, something a night owl rarely is. MIL asked SIL why this was so, and the response was “Oh, he got some last night.”

    MIL declared “You’re learning, girl!” in a very congratulatory manner.

    The marriage barely lasted six years. He woke up one morning and realized that the manipulation and efforts to control him didn’t align with his personal goals, and he ended up getting divorced. There were no kids, so the divorce was essentially financial. He vows He will never again marry.

    Hope this answers more questions than it raises.

  30. @blurkel

    Indeed, that does answer my question, though I had an inkling of what it was going to be already. I had just been praying I was wrong…but given past experiences, I was worried.

    https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/on-being-an-unintentional-spy/

    It seems my fears were (sadly) entirely justified. Such psychological manipulation is despicable…I don’t even treat my *pets* this way after their basic litter training. If I see no need to use these tricks and manipulative reward/punishment systems on a guinea pig or cockatiel, I would most assuredly never consider using them on my mate or lover. That’s just sick.

  31. Ok, here are my answers:
    1. Defining myself. Defining my own goals. Not being shamed or pressured into doing things I don’t want to do. Not seeking fulfillment in other people, especially women.
    2. It’s as I would expect. There’s little coverage, and what coverage there is is a mixture of outrage, shaming and confusion.
    3. When a man is on a marriage strike ONLY, that has basically one cause: the lack of benefits that marriage has for men in the modern day, coupled with the huge risks. More and more men are waking up to the folly of marriage, because the Internet has facilitated the emergence of a manosphere, and because more men are experiencing divorce and because more men have grown up with parents who have gotten divorced (and those men don’t want to experience it for themselves). However, when a man decides not only to strike against marriage but to go even further MGTOW, that could have any number of causes. The marriage strike would, in my view, be the smallest degree of MGTOW. The largest degree would, of course, be shunning women altogether.
    4. I would never stop being MGTOW. I am happy being single. A common term in MGTOW is ‘taking the red pill’. Once you’ve taken the red pill, you can’t go back to your pre-MGTOW mentality and you probably wouldn’t want to even if you could. The pre-MGTOW mentality may (like the Matrix simulation) have its comforts, but (as Nietzsche might say) it is a slave mentality.
    5. Never married.
    6. I would agree, unless he’s separated.
    7. 23.
    8. Stopped engaging in hook-ups a year ago. Now I avoid women altogether after discovering MGTOW online.
    9. Graduated with bachelor’s degree.
    10. American: half white, half Chinese.
    11. I think MGTOW actually defuses misogyny. There are many different ways to categorize MGTOW, but one way is to distinguish between Intentional MGTOW and Apathetic MGTOW. Apathetic MGTOW may have never even heard the term ‘MGTOW’ before: they just avoid women because they can’t be bothered. Almost by definition, there’s no misogyny in that category. Hatred cannot be apathy! The Intentional MGTOW, however, mostly did come from a place of anger. But from my observations, going MGTOW actually brings peace to the minds of the Intentional MGTOW. It reminds me of the seven stages of grief! And, regardless, MGTOW don’t want to force anything on women, whereas feminists do generally want to force things on men, whether it’s paying for women’s health-care, affirmative action, and so on. In that regard, criticizing MGTOW is therefore like criticizing the Amish!
    12. None.
    13. Clearly, not all women ARE like that. But, that doesn’t make MGTOW any less valid: there’s so much wrong with the law and with behavioral norms, and there are indeed so many AWALTs out there, that the risk of unhappiness just isn’t worth it.
    14. (Going from most important to least important) A. Legal equality. Some examples: abolish alimony; replace child support with joint custody, except in those rare cases where that really would be inappropriate; make it illegal for a woman to have a child unless she has agreed with the father to have a child or to oppose abortion (in other words, no parenthood, whether motherhood or fatherhood, without consent); enforce the law properly on female-on-male crime, just as with male-on-female crime. B. Huge change in female behaviour. Examples: No more control-freakery; stop excusing/minimizing female-on-male crime; ditch feminism, replace with respect for everyone. C. The release of a male contraceptive that is as safe and effective as the female pill.
    15. It would help MGTOW by reducing the pool of available women and thereby reducing temptation. So I’m for it.
    16. Good for them.
    17. Chivalry doesn’t affect me. I don’t date. I don’t help a woman, if I wouldn’t help a man in the same situation.
    18. I think I should dispel some myths about MGTOW for the sake of anyone who may be uninformed. MGTOW, PUAs and MRAs are not the same thing. A men’s rights activist (MRA) is someone, male or female, who campaigns for men’s rights. They generally take a libertarian/classical-liberal view on what rights are: you have the right to be free from violence, basically; you don’t have the right to other people’s money, for example. MRAs typically want to ban infant male circumcision, reform or abolish child support, reform or abolish alimony and divorce settlements, and equalize rape laws, for example. A man going his own way (MGHOW; plural: men going their own way, MGTOW) is a man who shuns women to some degree (as I said, this ranges from total shunning all the way down to a mere marriage strike; and MGTOW can be intentional or apathetic). A MGHOW will typically support men’s rights, but probably would not be a campaigner like an MRA (because MGTOW don’t see the point in trying to convince women through campaigning that the law is unjust or that their behaviour must change). A pick-up artist (PUA) is a man who hones his flirting skills to seduce women, typically aiming for the hottest women and relaying his stories to other PUAs. A PUA by definition cannot be a MGHOW, except in a very marginal sense. There’s also something called True Forced Loneliness. A TFLer by definition can’t be a MGHOW at all or a PUA at all. A TFLer believes that society is forcing him to be alone because it imposes standards of beauty, wealth, etc that he can’t reach.

  32. “Such psychological manipulation” is what Western societies have evolved into, and I read this as being an artifact of the Industrial Revolution. The IR took individual craftsmen and converted them into employees, forcing a subversion of their manhood and self-pride so as to not irritate the “master” who pays them to toil on his behalf. Such men could no longer function as the traditional Man of the House, and as Nature abhors a vacuum, their wives tended to assume that role for the benefit of the household.
    Unfortunately, this has become the accepted norm, and MGTOWs of the worst type (those seeking to “resume” dominance over women as the Isla Vista murderer espoused) have reacted to this as their rationale for abusing feminine trust and using sex as the scorecard.
    I don’t think that most modern women care how men are afflicted, as it’s my experience that their concerns only extend as far as they benefit themselves. He’s on his own once that limit is reached. This tends to generate a great deal of male animosity which makes it harder for men to lower their shields enough for honest and open discourse to occur with women to sponsor a dialogue to improve the situation for both of us.

  33. Hello, MGTOW Jim. Pleased to meet you and thanks for your responses. You added a lot to my data pool just on your own!

    First, I love your answers to #’s 3, 4, 11 and 14. Your response for #18 was spectacular too, especially in regards to what recently happened with the Elliot shootings. I’ve also never heard of True Forced Loneliness before, so I’ll have to dig some more into that. It may fit in well with a draft I’m working on about loneliness, male suicide, and lack of acceptable touch for men in Western society.

    17…heh, what can I say except that I like the way you think. Though if I may, can I ask how you avoid women “altogether”? I’ve heard of men who simply don’t interact with non-relative women or speak to them outside of work, but I’ve also heard of men who refuse to even talk to a female cashier or doctor. I guess my question boils down to how far do you go to avoid female interaction?

  34. Tsk, tsk, Tarnished. With regards to MGTOW Jim and #17, you are missing the obvious answer as to how to avoid women altogether.
    Have cooties. The ladies will then do all the work. };-)>

  35. Aw, don’t be ridiculous Nav. Even a kindergartener knows how to give a “cootie shot” to protect against such diseases. 🙂

  36. Good points all around, though I’m going to have to remember your phrase “sex as a scorecard”. Might come in handy when I do a followup post about male virginity…

    I can’t understand *not* caring about others, but then I’m also “way too nice” according to some of my coworkers. (This was told to me after a conversation about impromptu marriage proposals, where I said I’d still say “yes” in front of onlookers to allow the guy to save face if I didn’t actually want to marry him. Apparently this is “too compassionate” and a little weird.)

  37. @ Tarnished
    Saying “yes” only to have to say “No, sorry” later isn’t fair to him, nor does he deserve that consideration. Far better to say “I’ll give that some thought” and leave it at that.
    I won’t go into details as I consider them too personal to share, but I get not caring about others. That I still care about anyone after some of the experiences I have had shows that my transgressors are not lumped into the General Humanity category, in which I blame everyone for the acts of a few.

  38. @Blurkel

    I think he would deserve that consideration if it was someone I’d been dating for a long time and he just was in a different place in the relationship (which is what the example was – a guy you’ve been dating proposing in front of a crowd/in a restaurant). I’d want to spare him the humiliation of numerous strangers looking down on him, because I’d care about his feelings and appreciate his openness and vulnerability at that moment. If it was in private, then yes…your idea is better, hands down.

    I guess I have too much empathy/sympathy for people. Despite the abuse, despite the bullying, despite the custody fights and lies my biological dad put me through, and in spite of what I know our species is like…I can’t make myself not care. Believe me, there’s been many a time I *wanted* to not give a damn.

    I’m not even saying this empathy is a good trait to have. Honestly, I get my kindness taken advantage of more than I want to admit (though I think I’m getting better at saying no). I would never begrudge you your own thoughts on this…you do what you have to in order to survive. I get that at least.

  39. 1. I started going my own way before I’d heard of MGTOW or MRA. I’m still not sure what’s meant by “alpha male”, and guess “beta male” refers to the 80% of men that women find to be “below average”. If alpha male means “gets hit on by lots of women everywhere he goes” then I am an alpha male. If it means “… and shags as many of them as possible” then I am not an alpha male (and probably not a beta, either). I mention this because there seems to be a perception that all MGTOW are beta males.
    2. MGTOW are men. Men are badly represented in the media. This is driven by women. It disgusts me.
    3. For me it’s not a marriage strike. It’s a withdrawal from a society that disgusts me.
    4. For me it’s not a question of happiness so much as a matter of integrity. I put as much distance as possible between myself and a corrupt feminist Establishment (which they call “the patriachy”).
    5. Never married.
    6. Knowing what I know, seeing what I’ve seen, I could not marry or remain married to a feminist.
    7. 29.5
    8. Casual hookups when I go overseas. This avoids any possibility of relationships.
    9. MEng
    10. Norman, Saxon, Scot, Dane, Russian
    11. I can only speak for myself. Two of my uncles died prematutely, one by suicide, the other of a broken heart. All because their wives joined a feminist coven at the same time, allowed themselves to be convinced that they needed a change in life “because yer worrth it”, cuckolded their husbands out of their homes, and removed them from the lives of their children by accusing them of DV. I overheard a meeting of the feminist witches at my aunty’s home, when they whooped and applauded this destruction much like this:
    [link]
    I loath feminism with every fibre of my being. When a woman tells me she’s a feminist I want to puke.
    12. None
    13. OK, as long as they don’t tolerate feminism.
    14. The law, education, the media. Get rid of institutionalized white female gender-bigotry completely.
    15. See 13
    16. They are irrelevant to me.
    17. In every day life I have as little to do with women as is politely possible, and situations for un/chivalrous behaviour don’t occur. If I had to choose between saving a man or saving a woman, I would probably save the man (she needs me to save her like a fish needs a bicycle, right?).

  40. @Cill

    Hello, and thank you for your input. I believe that MGTOWs are usually referred to as “zetas” in the manosphere, when they are given such a classification. Doesn’t really matter what one calls it though, eh?

    I agree that men, and to some extent boys, are poorly represented or all out misrepresented in typical Western media. As you say you have some experience visiting overseas, can you tell readers what the media and/or culture regarding males is like in the countries you frequent?

    It saddened my heart to hear about your uncles. I am sorry for your loss of family, and the extinguishing of their lives in general. There truly are cruel people in this world, and some of them are women like your aunts. I hope they someday realize the harm they have wrought.

    I also agree with you about the chivalry concept. While I would obviously *want* to be helped out of a dangerous/deadly situation, my female body shouldn’t be used as a reason for someone risking themselves to save me. My life is precious…but so is everyone else’s.

    One more question: You use some Pagan terminology in describing your aunts. Covens and witches? Are you simply using these terms as typical Hollywood/Western media uses them, or do you mean your aunts actually found a coven that is anti-male? I only ask because I’m a solitary Wiccan myself, and in my 17 years of practicing have never heard of Pagans like this. Only the Dianic Wiccans come close, and even they don’t hate men (they simply pray to the Goddess and don’t include the God). If there is a real coven out there using Paganism in such a blasphemous way and for an excuse for bad behavior, I’d like to know about it.

    Thanks again, and I hope to hear from you soon, friend.

  41. Thank you for “Zetas”. Having googled it I can say, yes, if I ever find it necessary to classify myself I’ll call myself a zeta male.
    “[C]an you tell readers what the media and/or culture regarding males is like in the countries you frequent?” :
    The only places in which I have encountered a culture of male denigration are those where women are most privileged i.e. western Europe, north America and Australasia.
    I have visited every continent, including Antarctica (women there too), but I’ll talk about China.
    I lived in Shanghai for 3 years. For my first few days there, I couldn’t understand why I felt so invigorated by the place. I mean, the air pollution is nothing short of dreadful. So why did I feel such a glorious sense of release? Then I realized China is not compulsively anti-male. Nothing about the place sneers down on a man’s maleness or masculinity.
    The women of Shanghai are not unhappy. For someone living in China, the western feminist’s characterisation of the Chinese women as “oppressed” comes across as arrogant, as if “you aint got the white woman’s feminism so you aint free!”. I saw no evidence of this gender oppression. Okay, mine is just one man’s experience of an enormous country, but a visitor learns most from “pillow talk”. Their mothers invited me for dinner so many times, I asked one lover during pillow talk “why does your mother invite me again?” She whispered “because she wants you to marry me” – and I could sense she was afraid of her mum. I encountered this many times. Those Chinese mums ruled in the home, from what I could see (I have no doubt that lunatic feminism would attribute this to “the patriarchy”).
    I could knock on about my experiences with women in other countries, but suffice it to say, in most of those places the world of white female gender-bigotry seems far, far away.
    Gotta go. I’ll come back to the witch question.

  42. @Cill

    No problem. I thought that definition was closer to what you were. Glad to help.

    Wow, that’s awesome. The only countries I’ve visited thusfar are Canada and Mexico, and of course a good chunk of the US since I live here. I hope that one day I too can visit every continent, but if not then I’d settle for living in an RV and traveling as I wish in the Americas.

    Yeah, before she passed on from Alzheimer’s, my grandmother went to China three times (as well as many other countries). I learned a lot from her stories and the books she brought back, but most of all the fact that just because a culture is different doesn’t necessarily mean it’s oppressive. I agree…believing your culture is unequivocally “best” is very arrogant.

    I appreciate you coming back to respond, and look forward to further conversation. Hope your day goes well.

  43. I need to clarify something in my June 20, 2014 at 3:33 AM.
    After the “because she wants you to marry me” experience, I felt bad. I realized I had completely misunderstood the situation. My urge to comfort and protect her was so strong, I almost asked her to marry me lol! And then I sorta “came to” and found myself holding her and kissing the top of her head like she was a child, and actually COMPOUNDING the misunderstanding! Just thinking about it gives me the guilts to this day..
    Here’s the thing: I can’t have sex unless I already feel close to the woman in an intimate way. Wham-bam doesn’t work for me.
    I no longer get involved without first making it clear that there’s no possibility of LTR. I’ll do anything (almost) to avoid hurting someone. Intimacy + sex + 2 or more days = recipe for misunderstanding.
    There are many MGTOW in China, which they don’t equate with the MGTOW of the web. While there, I read a few articles about them, but never discussed it with anyone. I did speak to some “herbivores” in Japan. They’re pretty much everywhere and they wear make-up and often look rather bland. They are neither gay nor interested in women in ANY WAY. The people of Japan (especially the men) despair of them.
    While in France I heard some talk of a huge number of young men GTOW. Figures of 20% and 25% were mentioned. Same in Italy.
    Warning to other MGTOWs:
    There are some very rare women in Hungary who are enchanting beyond words, lovely by nature and utterly irresistible. If ever you are (un)lucky enough to meet one, and she takes you out of town to a little hut in the countryside, be sure to keep your wits about you (these huts are usually on the side of a hill). She will ply you with delicacies of fruit and vege and meat, all grown in plots around her hut.. For me, it was the closest I’ve ever come to losing my MGHOW status. The only part of the experience I did not enjoy was the home made wine (yuk!).
    tarnished, you give your sex as female and your gender as male. Is this something to do with the “gender is a social construct” thing? Or something spiritual? Or… what?
    Forgive me, but I’ve run out of time again. I will come back “coven” and “witch”, I promise.

  44. “Coven” and “witch”:
    My aunts said they belonged to a “feminist chapter”. They also referred to it as a coven. At that time, I assumed they were using “coven” as a sort of loose reference to a “sisterhood”. It never occurred to me that the chapter might actually have been a coven of witches.
    If they were witches, it’s unlikely that no-one in my family or extended family knew about it and failed to mention it. My extended family were very close. Both my parents came from big families and I had 19 cousins and we all got together at least once a year.
    After the divorces those 2 aunts (I think of them as Goneril and Regan) insisted on attending the family gatherings. It killed our enjoyment of those occasions. At a gathering after my uncles (my dad’s bothers) died my dad shouted at Goneril and Regan and told them to leave. They refused to do so and things turned ugly. Goneril was always the ring-leader and Regan was even more viscious. Goneril lodged a complaint against my dad with the police. No charge was brought because there were so many witnesses to say dad did not harass her.
    We all hoped they would not come to any more family gatherings, but they did out of sheer bloody-mindedness. The family gatherings just died out because of it and I’ve lost contact with most of my cousins.
    Goneril looked, spoke and behaved much like Sharon Osbourne here, starting at about 4:43:

  45. @Cill

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    First, the whole witches thing; From what you’ve said, it doesn’t sound like they were actual Pagans or any branch of Wicca, for which I am glad. The entire reason I dedicated myself to this religion so many years ago is because of it’s concepts of equality…Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine, God and Goddess, the sacredness of men and women alike in the natural cycles of Youth-Husband-Sage and Maiden-Mother-Crone. Of course, there are people who can corrupt any religion for their own purposes (look at what Westboro Baptist has done to Christianity), but I’d be quite angry if someone decided to create a “man-haters club” and use a twisted version of my faith to uphold their beliefs.

    I can’t see your link on my phone, but from the context of your comment I imagine it’s a clip of her incredibly misandric and nauseating speeches about how funny severed male genitals are? The first time I watched that, I had to pause the video and run to the bathroom because I thought I was going to be sick, my stomach was roiling so much. I can handle watching surgeries on TLC, remove parasites from injured animals, and view a human cadaver dissection for a college Bio course…but I’ve no stomach for hatred, it makes me physically ill.

    Your story about the Chinese lady makes me think you could be demisexual, similar to me. I wish I could have casual sex because there’s many people I care for and wish to comfort with intimacy, but I need some sort of emotional connection to make myself so vulnerable. Thus why I’m 30, but have only had 1 sexual partner in my life so far (I don’t count my sexual abuse as having a partner, as that was forced upon me.) See my posts “What is Love” and “What is Sex” if you’d like more clarification about my thoughts on these topics…I believe you’ll find we have a bit in common.

    I think it is very good and noble of you to ensure there are no hurt feelings in the women you have sex with. New readers of the manosphere often come across MGTOW forums where the message in regards to casual sex can be summed up as “screw her and her ‘feelings’, I got my jollies and that’s all that counts”. It should be obvious to anyone over the age of 10 that these are *individual* men making *individual* statements, and that NAMALT…but we know how that goes.

    Interesting information about the worldwide phenomena of MGTOW. I knew it was growing, but was unaware of it being so pervasive. The herbivores in Japan sound almost like a self enforced asexual lifestyle, honestly. *shrug* Like I said in my other MGTOW post, I am a person who enjoys singlehood and self-sufficiency…it’d be pretty hypocritical for me to judge others who are also “followers” of the single life. Live and let live.

    As for the difference between my sex and gender, no it’s not a “gender is a social construct” thing. Although I do believe some of our more extreme gender roles are mere tradition at this point, there is still a lot to be said for Nature rather than Nurture. Men generally have a masculine-wired brain, women generally have a feminine-wired brain. There are both chemical and physical differences between the brain matter of the sexes, and these should be respected and acknowledged more often. *Not* to create idiotic discussions about “superiority” or how sex Z or Q “lacks” a trait…just to let men know that masculinity is not demonic and to let women know femininity isn’t weak.

    Then there’s people like myself who are…mismatched with our bodies. We have the brain chemistry and physical characteristics of the opposite sex. Some attempt to fix this by becoming transgender, either via hormone therapy or in more extreme cases, surgery and genital reconstruction. Others, such as I, accept our strangeness but do not seek out medical changes. To most, I am a woman who never gave up her “tomboy” tendencies as she got older. So long as I’m treated the same as a man, I don’t care what they think. I write about this topic more here; https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/tag/gender-dysphoria/

    It’s great talking to you, Cill. You have an awesomely rational mind while retaining your compassion for others, which mirrors my own style (as well as some other commenters). I hope to see you on other posts too. Hopefully my links will clear up some stuff for you too.

    Til then…

  46. tarnished, yours…

    “…mismatched with our bodies. We have the brain chemistry and physical characteristics of the opposite sex.”

    Could you expand on “physical characteristics of the opposite sex”?

  47. “Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine, God and Goddess, the sacredness of men and women alike in the natural cycles of Youth-Husband-Sage and Maiden-Mother-Crone.”

    There are so many intriguing aspects to this…

  48. @Cill

    Sure. What I meant was that the brain structures and responses of people with gender dysphoria/transsexualism are very often closer to that of the sex they feel like than the one they actually are. I apologize if I made it sound as though gender dysphoric people all have androgynous bodies, that was not my intent. I myself have a very female body that I gave up trying to hide under cloth bandages (to bind my breasts) and extremely bulky clothes (to hide my hips) after high school.
    One of the major things I disagree with feminists about is the idea that ALL of gender is a social construct…in other words, boys and girls are blank slates at birth, and the only reason for perceived differences is due to peer pressure, media influence, and the way their parents raised them. I find this to be patently false; Men and women have different hormones throughout their lives, starting at the fetal stage. To argue that these have no effect on brain development is ludicrous. (Note that I am not talking about things like basic intelligence, we already know that the majority of women are of average intelligence whereas men are more likely to be on either extreme…and obviously this doesn’t hold true for everyone.)

    The fact that there is more and more research being done with the help of dysphoric people like myself just goes to show that the mind is rather rigid when it comes to sexual identity, despite what the rest of the body presents. I’d suggest looking here for some quick information http://www.gires.org.uk/dysphoria.php or reading the book As Nature Made Him for a truly amazing but sad look into a failed attempt to change one boy’s sexual identity.

    In regards to the ideas of my faith, yes I think it’s interesting and intriguing too. The emphasis on the differences between the sexes combined with the idea of true fairness and equality is what really attracted me to Wicca in the first place. Unlike the Abrahamic religions which maintain a type of “complementary equality” where the man is still forced into a out-of-home leadership role and the woman into an in-the-home helpmate role, Wiccan beliefs stress the importance of having a healthy relationship with clear communication and that roles be taken on as partners desire, rather than what is simply traditional. Since we have no core religious text to fall back on, ours is a truly “living” belief system as it can retain it’s tenets of morality while accepting the alterations of modern society. The God is the equal to the Goddess in every way, and encompasses the Divine Masculine just as much as She encompasses the Divine Feminine. Sometimes these traits overlap or build off of one another…they are hardly as “black and white” as people enjoy believing.

  49. Thank you tarnished, I understand it better now. Also “demisexual” (another word new to me) has helped to clarify my thoughts.

    Looking here: http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Demisexual
    … I don’t think I’m demisexual. I experience primary sexual attraction, which I’ll define crudely as “sexual attraction without need for emotional connection”. For me, though, if emotional connection doesn’t eventuate I won’t let the sexual attraction follow through into sex. I couldn’t get any joy out of sex with someone who isn’t totally into it.

    Your position, as you expressed it, involves the experience of secondary sexual attraction and to that extent is demisexual? Am I right about this?

    I had to think about your/you’re “vulnerable”. My mum tells people: “Cill was born without the fear gene” which is an exaggeration but in my adult life I seldom feel afraid. Extreme sports is my favourite pastime. To conquer fear, I have pushed the envelope for as long as I can remember. As for vulnerability during sex… nope. At least, not in the physical sense.

    I have puffed on in a way that suggests courage. That’s as nothing, I reckon, to your courage tarnished. Friend.

  50. You’re welcome, Cill. I’m glad you are finding our conversation educational, and want you to know the same holds true for me…I often think that simply listening to stories of other’s lives is a form of “schooling” that we don’t do nearly as much as we should.

    For me, I can appreciate that a man or woman is physically attractive, but I would not be inclined to have sex with them just because of their attractiveness. The hottest man or woman could throw themselves naked at me, but if there is no emotional connection between us…then there’s no desire in me to be intimate with them. The emotional connection doesn’t even have to be romantic love; it can be a friendship that turns into something else (like what I currently have) or a truly heartfelt, deep conversation (like I had with 1 visiting professor years ago at college that ended with us feeling like we knew the other from ages past…we didn’t do anything, but I know I could have).

    You can imagine how much the manosphere “disbelieves” such a position. To the majority, if you were born with a vagina, you are hypergamous, materialistic, irrational, flaky, narcissistic, and are attracted to egotistical but muscular “bad boys” or “alphas”. Any female-bodied person who says otherwise is undoubtedly trying to be a “special snowflake” or the embodiment of NAWALT. Feminists, on the other hand, seem to claim that somehow *all* women are demisexual, that every female-bodied person requires an emotional connection and only a rare few women are attracted to “bad boys”. This is also false…a great deal of women are attracted to such men, and to say otherwise is to live in abject denial of society as it is today.

    About vulnerability: I did not mean in the physical sense. My lover is 5 inches taller than me, and weighs almost double what I do. Ergo, I am always physically “vulnerable” to him, but never think of this aspect of it since I know he’d never hurt me. I mean in an emotional sense…the taking down of your mental barriers so that you are able to greet your partner naked in all ways. No walls, whether they be of cloth or mind. Accepting someone for *all* they are, not just what you’d like them to be. This is the vulnerability I speak of.

    I am happy you have an outlet for your lack of fear, Cill. My younger brother found that extreme sports wasn’t enough for him anymore, so he joined the Marines. But courage is not the lack of fear, my friend. Courage is being afraid but doing what needs to be done anyway. Knowing that standing up for the boy that’s being bullied will mean you now open yourself up for attack, but you do so because it’s right. Allowing your body to be used by an immoral stepparent so that your younger sisters are spared. Breaking the neck of a squirrel the neighborhood “bad boys” caught, tortured, and left to slowly die because even though you hate killing, you know that taking another’s pain unto yourself is the only good course of action left. Yes, there is a significant difference between lack of fear and courage.

    What say you?

  51. I think for some people, when it comes to sex, physical and emotional vulnerability are almost the same thing.
    The closest I ever came to sexual abuse was in my early teens. I had a music teacher who gradually took more and more liberties – a pat on the knee one week became a hand on the thigh the next, etc etc. The day came when he lost control and was all over me like a rash, in a frenzy. It seemed to give him an unnatural strength. He was a man in his prime and I was still a kid. I had a choice: submit, or injure him. There was no middle ground. My lack of fear allowed me to be calculating about it. I took him by surprise and knocked him out.
    This, my most traumatic sexual experience, left me with no emotional scars. To compare it with your experience would be an insult. Honestly, just thinking about your experience has a more harrowing effect on me than anything in my own past. Your vulnerability in every sense, trapped, helpless, betrayed, the lack of options… hell.
    My most traumatic sexual experience failed to make me feel vulnerable, physically or emotionally. For me, physical and emotional vulnerability are so connected as to be almost identical. I can’t feel emotionally vulnerable when I am confident of physical outcome.
    The risk of false rape accusation makes me vulnerable. Also, I’d feel vulnerable in sex if I was clearly making the woman feel vulnerable.
    I have performed acts of courage of the types you mention, which in my case were only pseudo courage. My lack of fear precludes me from acts of real courage. I’d like to experience real courage, but not at the cost of fear.

  52. I’m sorry to hear about what happened to you. I think in a situation like that I’d have had no problem fighting back. Depending on my age, I may not have won…but there would be no reason for me to submit to such an attack. A music teacher would’ve had so much less manipulation leverage than my stepfather that you’re right…it’s almost two different things.

    I hope you don’t allow yourself to dwell on what I’ve gone through. It was bad, yes, and I don’t pull punches when writhing about it…but at this point in my life I’m a survivor, not a victim. Please don’t let my past trials get you depressed.

    If I may, can I ask if you’ve ever been falsely accused? If you haven’t, is it still something you worry about to the point where it’s comparable to the reactions I speak of in my Androphobia post?

  53. @blurkel

    Unfortunately, this has become the accepted norm, and MGTOWs of the worst type (those seeking to “resume” dominance over women as the Isla Vista murderer espoused) have reacted to this as their rationale for abusing feminine trust and using sex as the scorecard.

    The above causes my knee to jerk. Were you perhaps intending some other group, such as traditionalist conservatives or PUAs? I’m MGTOW, and I have zero desire to dominate women or men, nor have I met any MGTOW that seek dominance. In fact, I’d say that, and perhaps this is my own bias, that MGTOW is about protecting one’s control over his own life.
    That you qualify “of the worst types” implies that the range is negative in general, cresting to a high negative. Maybe it’s just the phrasing, but I am wary of such comments.
    What I seek is independence over my own life, not dominance over another’s. Should I in any way demonstrate character traits that incite others to wish to follow, that is merely a byproduct of knowing who I am and living according to my own highest standards, but it is a by-product, not an objective, and when chosen by another, it is of their own free-will, and more often than not, contextual. I’ve never been a good leader or follower, but I am an excellent collaborator.
    Compliance, dominance or obedience is anathema to me. I vet those I associate closely with based on their very own level of self-possession. I strongly believe that the finest people to associate with are those that know who they are and are fully willing and capable of leading their own lives as they see fit. It is only when we have an association of mentally and emotionally free individuals that real friendship or love can exist, otherwise the relationship is likely to be infected with a pathology of dependence. Lack of dependence or want or need leads to healthy free association.

    I don’t think that most modern women care how men are afflicted, as it’s my experience that their concerns only extend as far as they benefit themselves. He’s on his own once that limit is reached. This tends to generate a great deal of male animosity which makes it harder for men to lower their shields enough for honest and open discourse to occur with women to sponsor a dialogue to improve the situation for both of us.

    This, however, hits my nail on the head. My greatest challenge with intimate relationships with women has been this very case. I’ve had mostly long-term and excellent relationships, but I’ve had a fair bit of dating too. Most people, nice and kind and as well-intentioned as they are are also script-following monkeys, merely repeating the routines they’ve learned subconsciously in their youth.
    Allow me to offer you a very common dating scenario for me.
    Her: “What do you do?”
    Me: List all kind of non-professional, non-money related and soul-satisfying activities.
    Her: “But what do you do for a living?”
    Me: “That IS living.”
    Her: “But what is your profession? How do you make money?”
    Me: “Does it matter?”
    At this point, one can visibly see her become frustrated, and start assessing the condition of my appearance, clothes, possessions. It is difficult to explain, but one can sense a heightened alertness, a calculator that is seeking items to assess to attempt to assess my level of wealth or status. I deliberately play the game of evading any answer that can hint to my level of status or wealth. I’ve had women flat out ask me if I’m a criminal, or if I’m with the mob when met with a stonewall. A man on the other hand will ask “What do you do?” and when answered with something like “I like such and such sport,” or “I enjoy gardening,” will immediately launch into questions about it, or share his own passions. It’s the rare man that attempts to evaluate my financial status.
    So to your comment about keeping walls up, I recognize this, mostly, from my position as an act of pre-emptive self-defence, and is in fact a barrier to intimacy. I often think that “the problem” is neither misandry, or misogyny, but of lack of self-awareness and routine following. The two mis-traits are merely a by-product thereof.

  54. @Francis

    I’ve yet to be on a real date, but I would probably also ask the other person what they do as a profession. Not to assess their wealth or “status”, but so that I could determine if they are in a career they like…or if they hate their job…or if they were essentially pushed into it by parents…or if it’s something that doesn’t make hardly any profit but they truly enjoy doing. You can tell a *lot* about someone’s personality by the way they talk about their profession.

    In return, I would talk about how I really love my job, plan on opening my own store, what my personal work ethic is, etc. I don’t care about how much someone makes…I care about if they are happy in what they do.

  55. tarnished,
    I’m with you on the subject of “good looks”. There’s a certain child-like female body shape that I could never be attracted to sexually. Otherwise looks don’t mean much to me at all. This leaves me wondering: what, then, am I initially attracted to? Maybe it’s emotional, and I’m demisexual after all.
    “can I ask if you’ve ever been falsely accused?”
    I haven’t, but two of my uncles were accused of DV, as stated. One of my friends was accused of sexual harassment.
    Another friend was accused of rape at university. The police didn’t charge him. Alibis, credit card records – even CCTV footage – proved him innocent. But the mainstream media had already reported that the police were investigating an accusation of rape against him. The stigma has followed him to this day. His words: “I’m innocent in fact, but ideologically guilty because I’m a man.” It has had a huge, negative impact on his life.
    Regarding vulnerability:
    I am a total MGHOW in relation to “western” women only. In avoiding them, I avoid exposing myself to a minefield of risks.
    Go to the heading “IS SEX BY COERCIVE PRESSURE RAPE?” at http://www.aphroditewounded.org/definitions.html
    … and I think you’ll see what I mean.

  56. @Cill

    Whether you’re demisexual or not, it’s really just important that you stay true to yourself.

    Yeah, I remember your previous comment about your uncles, which was really depressing. Oh, geez…I feel badly for your first friend, but the second one…wow. Isn’t there *anything* he can do? Surely the media reported on his innocence, too? If they didn’t do a followup, can he sue or get his name retroactively cleared in the press?

    As for the coercive pressure thing, I guess I must be missing something, or I’m misunderstanding you. If you use threats of harm or death to coerce someone into having sex, then I would definitely consider that a form of rape. The only reason I ever “submitted” to my stepfather usually wasn’t because he physically held me down…my skin is too white, and he found out early on that I bruises showed up too easily. It was because he threatened to kill my pets (which he did to my 3 hamsters and lizard when I refused to let him touch me once). As I got older and stronger, he said if I ever fought back he would just use my little sisters instead, or drain the bank accounts and disappear so my mother (a stay at home mom) would have to try and afford everything by herself. So yeah…using threats to get sex is a kind of rape in my mind. It’s one thing to revolt against someone who can only hurt *you*. It’s entirely different when another’s life/safety is on the line.

  57. Rape is obtaining sex by (inter alia):
    sulking
    withdrawing affection
    “I’ll go and sleep with somebody else”
    A man convicted of rape for any of these reasons is a “convicted rapist” for the rest of his life.
    I can imagine a husband saying to his wife “if there is to be no sex life between us, I’ll have to seek it elsewhere”. If sex follows, he’s guilty of rape. Under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 (UK) an offender convicted of rape is automatically included on ‘the childrens barred list’ and the ‘adults barred list’. No order of the court is required.
    Also, “sulking” and “withdrawing affection” are far too subjective for my liking.
    Marriage (any sort of relationship with a western woman) is not worth the risk.
    Re my falsely accused friend:
    There’s no law or rule to prevent the media publishing the name of the accused. There’s no law or rule to force the media to publish a decision not to prosecute. My friend consulted a lawyer who said he could bring a defamation case against the false accuser (not against the media because they have the right to publish the name of an accused). If he wins, he would get damages (money). But damages are no use unless the defendant has money. The accuser is a spend-thrift. Her hard-working mother would no doubt try to foot the bill. My friend doesn’t want to punish the mother. In any case, he wants to clear his name. The lawyer said there’s very little chance of media reporting any defamation decision.
    My other friend, the one who was accused of sexual harrassment, had a story almost as scary. I can’t go into detail, but it was somewhat similar to this mother’s report:
    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html

  58. Okay, I can see how some of the things they listed are not what I would truly call coercion. I think it’s actually pretty natural for people to sulk if they aren’t getting sex regularly, and if you are very frustrated then you might end up withholding affection.

    The “I’ll find sex elsewhere” should probably be done carefully, because some are good with open relationships. Honestly, this one can be a difficult one since you can have a mentally, intellectually, and emotionally fulfilling marriage with little to no sex in it…in which case, I would talk about finding it elsewhere too.

    I don’t believe marriage is a good institution in most cases either. I personally will never get married…why should I willingly give up my freedom? I’m also never having kids, so there isn’t even that to worry about. I applaud you for making a lifestyle choice that suits you.

    Will respond about your friends later.

  59. I know that you have stopped collecting data, but I just stumbled across this site and thought I’d drop in my $.02, in case you or anyone else is interested in yet another perspective. That said, let me warn you that I am every bit as long-worded as I am long-winded.
    #1. What does MGTOW mean to me?
    To me, MGTOW means living your own life and setting your own goals, with no influence from societal expectations. In some cases, you may meet societal expectations, since they may run parallel to your own self-interest. One who rejects such expectations simply because they exist is every bit as shackled as one who meets them, simply because they exist.
    #2. My reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of and presented in the media.
    I believe that what little attention the main stream media pays to MGTOW is slanted to the negative. I believe that this is more a combination of ignorance and convenience than any sort of conspiracy. Put bluntly, it’s easier for a reporter to mock and belittle the MGTOW belief than it is to investigate. If your readers/viewers are more likely to respond to the first effort than to the second…bonus! As long as the goal of the media is to maintain ratings, honest and objective reporting will continue to take a back seat to shallow buzzwords.
    #3. MGTOW and the Marriage Strike.
    Rather than believe that MGTOW is part of the Marriage Strike, I believe that the Marriage Strike is one aspect of MGTOW. Choosing not to engage in LTR’s including marriage, despite societal expectations, is an aspect of following your self interest. Since marriage has both high risk and has no real ROI, more and more men are deciding not to go through with it.
    #4. I am not fully MGTOW, as I am currently married and have been for 23 years. Yes, I fully admit that I married and fathered a child because I felt that it was the proper course of action (a blunder, but I was young). As my daughter is currently in college (a science degree, thank goodness!) I feel it is my responsibility to remain with my wife until my daughter obtains her degree and starts her career. After that, I’m free to leave.
    #5. As stated in #4, I am currently married, have been for 23 years, and have never divorced.
    #6. Marriage and MGTOW.
    I do not consider myself completely MGTOW, as I am married. However, I am meeting other aspects; I did not father a second child and I refuse to take on massive debt in order to purchase some of the finer things in life. I live frugally, and couldn’t care less about fashion and current popular culture. My current goal is to get my daughter educated and started on her career, so that I can then retire relatively young and drop out of the rat race.
    #7. I am currently 48 years old.
    #8. Relationship status is married. We live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, have the goal of educating our daughter and giving her a good start in the world…but that’s about the limit of our interactions.
    #9. I have a Bachelors Degree in Electrical Engineering.
    #10. I am Caucasian.
    #11. Misogyny: There is a fair amount, but I believe that most of it is from misogynists who don’t understand the MGTOW philosophy. A woman-hater might read the concept of “live a life free of female influence” and think that the rest of the MGTOW community has gone its own way to spite women. The misogynists seem rather shocked when they find that the majority of MGTOWs don’t hate women, but are indifferent. In reality, a true MGTOW doesn’t care enough about societal approval to attempt to spite women and female relationship avoidance is simply one aspect of MGTOW. Usually, after some time, the misogynists tend to realize they don’t have a fully sympathetic audience, locate more woman-haters and leave the MGTOW community. A few seem to realize that denigrating women only proves that female approval still means something to them, and realize that hating women isn’t helping themselves. These tend to re-address their own attitudes and fall in line with the MGTOW philosophy.
    #12. Religion: I was raised Christian protestant and still hold some of those beliefs. I believe that there’s something beyond the life I’m currently living, but I’ve become increasingly cynical as I realize how much organized religion has become big business.
    #13. NAWALT/AWALT/ etc: I have a very different attitude than most I’ve read in the manosphere. I’m personally convinced that the vast majority of women aren’t “like that” the vast majority of the time. There really isn’t a good acronym for this belief. The issue I have is that our culture has deemed that a woman’s life and happiness are more important than a man’s life and happiness. This message is constantly out there, sometimes subtle and sometimes blatant and our society has developed laws and beliefs that tend to favor women during altercations with men. I personally believe that women, like men, occasionally get fed up, tired or even lazy. The only problem is that a woman has the ability to take advantage of societal prejudices and unequal laws to come out ahead in most altercations. As a male with no claim of ‘victimhood’, I don’t have a counter to this and am thus at a disadvantage should an interaction turn into an altercation. As I have no way of knowing if any particular female at any particular time is at a point in her life where she’s looking for an easy way out of a situation, it’s best to keep any interactions with females, including my wife, professional, courteous and brief.
    #14. The three biggest aspects of societal change to make me quit being MGTOW.
    Again, I am not fully MGTOW in that I’m still engaged with society, to a certain extent. However, here are my top 3 issues with current society.
    #1. The overextended nanny state: The federal government seems determined to either tax away all wealth from those making an honest living, or run up a debt that will eventually fall on those making an honest living; just to give it to those who can claim some form of victimhood. Put bluntly, our social spending is even more out of control than our military spending. Force the federal government to balance its budget (my state already does) and I’ll feel free to engage in more economic interaction.
    #2. The overextended authority of the Federal Government: My first comment may be an aspect of this issue, but I’m honestly disgusted to the degree that the Federal Government has forced its way into our everyday lives. As an example of this, a few months ago Uncle Sugar shut down for a few days. The National Parks and Monuments also closed. Since when does the Federal Government have the right to tell a US citizen that he/she cannot go onto a piece of unclassified, federal property? When arguing against the shutdown, our President made the remark “how can a new business start up if the local SBA office is closed and cannot process a loan request?” Again, since when do we need the SBA? Can’t someone draw up a business plan and visit the local bank? That’s how my business (I currently own half) came into being.
    #3. I don’t have a #3, as my previous two were pretty general.
    #15. WGTOW: I’m all for it! Let anyone go his or her own way! I’d put the same stipulations on WGTOW as I do on MGTOW; don’t let anyone tell you that you have to take on responsibilities you don’t want to, but fulfill all responsibilities you have. You don’t have to be career minded, but don’t become a drain on the system by using the welfare state.
    #16. Single at heart women, see #15 above!
    #17. Chivalry has never bothered me from a gender standpoint. I try (don’t always succeed) to be polite. Since I haven’t dated for over two decades, the picking up the check isn’t an issue. I used to live next door to a widow and I occasionally helped her by hauling some of her heavy furniture around, but I considered that more of a ‘big person helping a smaller person’ than male helping female. I extended the same courtesy to some older neighbors.
    #18. I could drone on and on with further information. I’ll not do so unless you brace yourself for the onslaught and request such information.

  60. @PTRA

    No worries, friend. I only recently started to comb through the data, so yours snuck in at a good time. Thank you for taking the time to tell your story.

    Also, you make a very good point about the difference between true misogynists and MGTOWs. As I said to Axis (another new commenter) since I wrote my first post about MGTOW, I’ve only met pleasant, non sexist men who go their own way.

    Thanks again for being one of them, and I hope to hear from you again.

  61. 1. MGTOW is my statement of self-ownership; I owe nothing to a woman nor a man- not even my birth.
    2. I don’t really care. I’m too busy GMOW.
    3. For some, MGTOW may be part of the “marriage strike”. For others, it may not be. It’s not for me because a “strike” implies that there is a negotiation and if certain concessions were made, I would be willing to get married. I’m not and I won’t, therefor I can’t possibly be “on strike”. I’m not negotiating for a return; I quit marriage.
    4. No. I’ve been in relationships and the only thing I’ve found to be consistent between all of them is that I’m happiest the day after a relationship has ended.
    5. Never married.
    6. I’m inclined to agree with this. Marriage law gives a woman the power to destroy your life. You’re not really in control of your life if all of your decisions are made within the bounds of “if I go too far, my wife will destroy my life”.
    7. I’ve been anti-LTR since I was about 20. I was 27 when I formally discovered MGTOW. I’m now 30.
    8. I hit up an FWB or hire an escort when I absolutely need to. I sexually avoid any woman I haven’t known for at least 3-5 years unless they have very good references and offer a fair price.
    9. I never finished highschool. I dropped it to go work for a multi-national corporation, then after about almost ten years there, I got bored and opened my first company (marketing consultancy). A sale and a Fortune 500 later, and I’m running my second (an advertising consultancy) and third businesses (a logistics provider).
    10. I’m either not black, not white, Arab/Latino, or not Arab/Latino. The first two depend on which hate group you ask. The third depends on which Feminist you ask. The last one is actually correct.
    11. According to Feminism, if more than zero people with a penis gather in any area, it’s misogyny. MGTOW has a LOT of people and each of them have a penis.
    12. None. I’m true agnostic and could care less about whether or not a deity exists or whether others believe in such a thing.
    13. Not all bears will kill you if you walk up to them and give them a pat, but that’s not a reason to walk up to a bear and give it a pat.
    14. There aren’t any, because if there were, all men would be GTOW by default.
    15. I don’t.
    16. I don’t.
    17. They only impact me in the sense that I always reject them whenever their ugly tendrils attempt to slither in to my life.
    18. No.

  62. Thank you, Bachelor, for taking the time to complete my survey. I will add your answers into my spreadsheet. Part 1 of the results of this survey will be up this week.

  63. Friday afternoon here…and this is vaguely MGTOW related…why not to get married
    ‘I’ve just fitted strobe lights in the bedroom…it makes the wife look like she’s moving during sex’
    The guy is a cousin to the biggest drip in UK politics (the leader of the lefty labour party). More jokes to be found here
    http://order-order.com/2014/08/01/eds-cousin-miliband-familys-comedy-genius/
    Marriage is like a deck of cards.
    How so?
    In the beginning all you need is two hearts and a diamond…by the end you wish you had a club and a spade

  64. I was a member of a labor union for over 30 years. Not because I believed in unions, but because our management folks made a union necessary. It has been written that a society gets the government it deserves. Also a company gets the union it deserves.
    Many people reject the concept of a marriage strike based on a certain usually false image of what a strike is. Most people assume the legal/legal union, which has been approved by the NLRB after elections of the workers.
    And, at contract time, there is a negotiation process, and if negotiations fail, the members hold a secret vote to strike or not.
    There is also a wild cat strike. This usually involves some sort of problem to which no solution has been found. One day, an employee is sitting there working, thinking about it. He jumps up and screams (sorry, Popeye) “I’ve stood all I can stands and I can’t stands no more.”
    He tosses down his tools and heads for the door. By the time he gets there, most of the other employees are jumping up to follow him.
    That is the sort of marriage strike we have today in the US, England; and New Zealand. One man at a time; no leaders to attack or destroy.
    The marriage rate got so low by 2011 that the government did what Stalinist governments do. Stop printing the true figures, hoping the masses assume all is normal.
    Sorry to go off topic in you, Tarnished, but this is one of my pet peeves.

  65. “‘I’ve just fitted strobe lights in the bedroom…it makes the wife look like she’s moving during sex’”
    Hahaha!

  66. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    Freedom, joy, peace, appreciating every day, a chance to learn from and meet with like minded brothers.
    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    It’s pretty underground. I don’t mind if it never gains mass appeal, but it would be great if men (particularly young men) seeking answers could at least readily find it. I imagine if it becomes well known it will be generally targeted for ridicule and attack.
    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    Very correlated.
    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    You’re always king of your own chessboard – you can never see more than a few moves ahead, so you just to make wise moves rather than restrict yourself. I’m happy single.
    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Never married.
    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    I think you can be married and go MGTOW, but it seems a little nonsensical to be MGTOW and then marry. A married man going MGTOW becomes free in his heart even if he decides that a divorce is not a wise path. A bird in a cage whose song becomes a little more sweet.
    7. How old are you?
    37.
    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    Avoid women altogether.
    9. What is your level of education?
    Bachelor plus professional study.
    10. What ethnicity are you?
    Caucasian.
    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    Basically true. Most MGTOW have had their lives devastated by women repeatedly, and we’re talking about it. It’s necessary to get that anger out in the early stages, but over time the anger is replaced by serenity.
    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    Answer would be too long and vague.
    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    There are NAWALT, but not enough for men to engage in relationships. Also the modern culture is unfavorable to men such that a relationship with even a decent woman will still likely be a net emotional loss for the man.
    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    I don’t think there are any. Too excited about the future and all its possibilities. MGTOW means society does its thing, I do mine. Everyone’s happy.
    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    Strongly support this! It really would be refreshing to see women get more independence, especially the ability to work with their hands and be completely self supporting, not just climbing the corporate ladder. Men are going the way of Japan, so it’s my wish that women adapt and do likewise.
    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    Strongly support this! I Personally I’m fed up with all the traditional gender relations at this point. I want to see a rise in alternatives like proud singlehood, FWB, homosexual and bisexual marriage, transgender pride, polyamory, host/hostess clubs, legal prostitution, and everything in between/undefined.
    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    Our fathers taught us chivalry and double standards, and they had crushing effects on our lives as men. They may have meant well, but our fathers’ lessons don’t apply. We have to rewrite the book by learning from our own experiences and talking with one another.
    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    Thanks for the fun survey. Viva MGTOW!

  67. And thank you for some awesome answers, Forgotten Spell. 🙂

    I’ve already compiled my spreadsheets for the survey, but I will do a followup in December to include future answers, starting with yours. Since this post gets about 40 views every day that it’s been up, I’m sure that your words will help others in the meantime. Thanks again!

  68. A little late to the party but I’ll bite.

    1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

    It means the freedom to do as I please without having to answer or bow down to some pre-concieved notion as to what I’m “supposed” to be

    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

    That we’re all seen as just beta virgin losers that live in mom’s basement or bitter woman haters as opposed to being taken serious.

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

    Separate and overlapping at the same time. I’m sure there’s many “blue pill” guys that got burned in a divorce or three and won’t marry again and there’s several of the MRA/MGTOW writers and commenters that are married. At least a lot of guys are waking up to the bad deal that marriage is

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?

    The “red pill” is such a great analogy. No way I could ever go back after experienceing the “dark side.”

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

    Never married. No significant long term relationships to speak of either.

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

    Partially true. No matter your beliefs on a blog posting the reality is you still have obligations that tie you down. Example? Several times I’ve simply up and moved to a different state. No way I could have done that with a wife and kids and a mortgage.

    7. How old are you?

    Just turned 47

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

    None of the above. I don’t necessarily avoid women I just have nothing to offer them so they tend to keep their distance. I’m not tall, hot, rich or a badboy thug so I’m not on their radar.

    9. What is your level of education?

    HS graduate with tech school “degrees” in computer repair and audio engineering

    10. What ethnicity are you?

    Part French-Canadian and part Sicilian

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

    I would argue that most men don’t “hate” women but they mostly hate what the feminist movement and the manginas have let them become. We have young girls now that look up to the Kardsashians. That’s a huge problem.

    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

    Atheist.

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

    I would say that MWALT (most women are like that) to such an extent that the mindset AWALT exists. Women always complain that there’s no good men but IMNSHO there’s much fewer good women out there. I call them the 5%er’s. I see it as a pie chart. 45% are the “all men are stupid all men are jerks chicks rule men drool” crowd, 45% are the “he beats me and cheats on me BUT I LOVE HIM” crowd. only 5% are the ones worth having But it’s misnomer because they aren’t available. Someone figured out that she’s a 5%er and put her on lockdown. Guys ever meet a great chick and just go “wow if only she wasn’t married.” Bingo a 5%er.

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

    1. The hard sweat and labor of men is taken for granted way too much in society. Virtually 99% of everything is built, designed and kept up by men. Women have gotten a sense of “independence” because they have a bunch of make-work paper-pushing jobs like HR, PR, and the like. All done in offices with roads, electrical, A/C and plumbing systems, empty garbage dumpsters, and full gas tanks provided for and maintained by men. When women start protesting because they can’t get jobs in coal mines, oil fields, underwater welding, alaskan fishing boats and driving logging trucks than I’ll take them seriously

    2. The child support and alimony laws are completely out of control. I have no problems with child support but it should be reasonable and every dollar should have to be accounted for. Alimony should be outlawed period. Funny how women are all “strong and independent” until it comes to stealing a rich guy’s money they did fuck all to earn. Not defending Tiger Woods (dumbass should have never gotten married in the first place) but how can anyone justify handing over 200 MILLION DOLLARS to a chick that was a nanny for another golfer when he met her. You want that kind of money toots? Practice your short game and earn it.

    3. Convincing the 97% of the male population that our concerns are real and were not just a bunch of whiny losers that need to suck it up and stop complaining.

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

    Never gave it any thought. Is it even a thing?

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

    If they can convince themselves that being alone and knitting sweaters for their cats makes them happy then so be it.

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

    To quite a tired phrase “chivalry is dead and women killed it.” Chivalry came about from the “old days” where we literally had to kill our food and fight of the jungle predators just to stay alive. Also before science women were the live-givers and raised the family and without them the species would grind to a halt so that’s why they were given the special treatment that became known as chivalry. Those days are long past us and as feminists have been jamming down our throats for 40 years we’re all “equal” now. Personally my mom and my former singer operate under the notion that you always have to be super nice and helpful to everyone regardless of how much it hurts you. Very tough to act and be how you are and flex your muscles when you’re constantly told not to.

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

    One of my main issues with the whole MRA/MGTOW movement is how solintered it is and that’s why it’s so difficult to gain any traction. Are we PUA’s right? The MRA’s? The MGTOW’s? The move overseas and marry foreign crowd? The Incels? So many different ideas and philosophies. Just look at all the recent in-fighting and pissing contests within the manosphere for a great example.

    That’s why the other side is kicking our virtual and literal ass in the latest version of the “war of the sexes” The way I see it their philosophy is a one issue, 2 pronged approach:

    1a. Women first and foremost.
    1b. Even better at the expense of men

    and that’s it. That’s why they have been so effective and all we’re doing is chasing our tails around and having a big dick-swinging contest to see whose “more alpha” rather than focusing our efforts on the big picture.

    Hope this helps your survey. Just one observer’s opinion.

  69. Hi, Tarnished.

    I wrote my comment and then forgot all about it. I guess the Internet is a small world after all, as I find myself back here months later! I don’t know if it would still be useful to you for me to answer your follow-up points, but here goes. If not you, maybe someone else will find it useful! I will keep visiting this page for the next few days if you want to make further points.

    The Elliot Rodger spree was as interesting as it was tragic. From what I and fellow MGTOW have stated on the matter, I infer that there’s a consensus among us that Rodger is a tragic example of the dangers of caring too much about others’ views of oneself. He was essentially the anti-MGHOW, a narcissist desperate for adoration from women. We know he hated PUAs (which puts feminists, usually PUA-haters themselves, in an interesting bind!). I don’t think he ever mentioned MGTOW, though.

    True Forced Loneliness isn’t really a widely-used term (I believe a YouTuber, himself a TFLer, coined the term). But I and other MGTOW use it as a convenient and unique label for what many men feel these days. I’m not sure if Rodger would be included in that, as he did come across as not lonely at all but rather an attention-seeker. I could be wrong, though.

    A side note on Rodger. I and other MGTOW were disgusted by how the tragedy was used to push an anti-man line (though we soon just shrugged and took it as further confirmation of the rectitude of having gone our own way). It is true that Rodger was a misogynist. But, he was also a racist and a misandrist, yet these motivations, plus his general sense of social rejection (not just romantic/sexual rejection), were completely overshadowed in the media narrative. One could almost forget that Rodger had actually killed more men than women. Another bizarre thing that we MGTOW noticed was how Rodger seemed to have earned himself many adoring female fans (who called this murderer “cute”), while the media seemed to focus more of the blame on the allegedly misogynistic manosphere than on the killer himself. His YouTube subscription to the left-wing, pro-feminist Young Turks channel was ignored, while his hatred of PUAs was taken as proof as his misogyny (what does that make anti-PUA feminists then?), as was his visiting a bodybuilding forum (even though the site’s users actually tried to help him away from his anger).

    I’ve thought about how to specify ‘altogether’ and I think interacting with female cashiers really makes no difference. I think you’re a full MGHOW when you no longer interact with women as women. That necessarily means no sex, no dating, no relationships, no flirting and no close female friendships. But gender-neutral, non-intimate interactions with female cashiers or indeed female co-workers? I don’t see the harm. MGTOW isn’t a dogma. It’s a state of mind that arises from the understanding (even if, as especially in the case of Apathetic MGTOW, only half-formed) that a man cannot truly be free while being psychologically dependent on physical and/or emotional intimacy, of any kind, with anyone, and that the conflicting interests of male nature and female nature, coupled with the risks and costs imposed by the legal system on men who do engage in physical and emotional intimacy with women, make it especially urgent that men free themselves from any intimacy with women.

  70. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

    That I am a man who chooses to not live up to the standard that I am a provider for others. I provide for myself.

    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

    It seems that a lot of people simply misunderstand that after the core of what I said above, each MGTOW is still just that, a man.

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

    I’m going to have to say the latter, some MGTOW can be more vocal than others in voicing their thoughts, how ever, to say that all strikers are MGTOW is simply not true, MGTOW only stick to a basic core (see 1), after that, each man does what he pleases.

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?

    A MGTOW doesn’t necessarily mean single, I am currently in a relationship, a relationship that benefits her and I equally, when we hang out, we get great conversation from one another, as well as great sex. When we go out, we go dutch, or pay the other back in a meal next time. I have experience repairing cars, she has experience fixing phones, if her car breaks, she gets the part, and I fix it, if my phone breaks, I buy the parts and she fixes it.
    If you see the reciprocity, then you get it.
    So, I will always remain a MGHOW, but that won’t stop me from enjoying the company of other people.

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

    Single

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

    A married man can be MGTOW, nothing to stop him, but a married MGHOW is a bit strange sounding to me. If both people benefit mutually, then I call it good.

    7. How old are you?

    25

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

    Friend with Benefits, and other female friends on a platonic basis.

    9. What is your level of education?

    Tech School

    10. What ethnicity are you?

    Native American

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

    I would have to say that though I personally don’t condone misogyny, I cannot speak for others who claim to be MGTOW.

    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

    Atheist

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

    In order to better explain, here’s an example:
    A man says, “I wish women weren’t so mean.”
    Another person replies, “Not ALL women are mean!”

    Do you see what happened, the man did make a generalization, which is something that happens, but the bystander ASSUMES that the man was talking about all women.
    People make generalizations, it’s a way to wrap your head around things that you notice.
    People also get offended by seemingly inoffensive things, it just proves that all people have varying skin thickness.

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

    For me, nothing will change my current mindset, and nothing should. I demand to not be shamed for living my life in the way that I want, not to how everyone wants me to live.

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

    I have no problem with women doing what they want, as it has no effect on me.
    If a woman lets me go my way, who am I to prevent her from going her own.
    If we happen to be going the same direction, maybe a conversation can come from it.

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

    See 15

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

    I used to be chivalrous, I used to go out of my way for women to make them smile, or for a thank you. I used to buy things for women with whom I was interested in. Eventually, someone took all of the kindness for granted, so I stopped.
    This wasn’t because of bitterness, it was because I felt that if a woman wants something, she can work for it, just like me.
    I may still get random surprises, but only in the way I would for a guy.

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

    I seem to be pretty level headed, and simple, the key to MGTOW isn’t hate, and yelling misandry, it’s a solution to a problem using logic. We feel like women use us, so we stopped being used.

  71. Thanks for taking the time to answer, Bryan. It’s appreciated.

    I’m also in a FwB relationship, lasted 8 years thus far. It’s a bit different than your own (I pay for everything due to our income discrepancies, and neither of us has tech skills of that nature) but it seems like friends with benefits is a fairly safe way to remain single and retain the freedom of both partners while enjoying each others company.

    I’ve been asked by some readers where to find other women like myself who treat men equally, and from your description you know one as well. How did you meet each other, and did she always agree to go dutch, remain FwB, etc.?

  72. Tarnished:

    When I first responded to your MGTOW survey, I stated that I believed that the growing participation in the MGTOW lifestyle was more a matter of economics and legal protection than a social decision. Using this as a background, I would like to pose a couple of questions in this regard, referencing an advertising surge I noted during the recent holiday season.

    In the weeks leading up to Christmas, I noticed the major diamond companies pushing their product via television advertising. I saw the usual parade of handsome young men dropping to a knee to offer the small bits of glorified coal to pretty young women, who of course always reacted with surprised delight: I saw one where the young man, upon making his purchase and preparing to sally forth to win the heart of his chosen, was confronted with a pretty sales clerk who made it perfectly clear that if the young woman in question did not accept the token, he could bring it back and she would be very happy to accept it. I also saw penguins offering diamonds to their would-be mates.

    Maybe I’m getting more cynical in my old age, but I would like to ask you, and your readers, the following questions.

    #1. Has anyone noted any commercials, in any media, that encourage the woman to bestow a pricey gift upon her man in an effort to secure his affection? In this era of state-enforced workplace equality and the widespread use of the “man who refuses to commit” character in movies and television shows, wouldn’t this seem to be a prime selling point?

    #2. Did anyone else feel mildly offended by this advertising surge? While my courting years are almost three decades in the past, the thought that somebody might expect me to drop that kind of money, just as a delivery vehicle for the question, seems insulting. I would expect young women to also be rather insulted, because these commercials seem to suggest that the only way to start a long term relationship is if the young man is willing to go into considerable debt.

    As a final comment, I believe that this is a major contributor to the MGTOW lifestyle; the rejecting of the expectation to beggar yourself to put a trinket on your future wife’s finger…with no expectation for her to make a similar gesture.

    Daccu65

  73. Hello again, Daccu65.

    Coincidentally, I was just talking to one of my (married twenty years) friends about this. Luckily he’s rather “purple pill”, and didn’t spend a huge amount of money on his wife’s engagement ring all those years ago. But when I asked him what she got for him in return, he laughed and said men don’t typically want or expect anything. I replied that this may be true, but it’s hardly equal, and not the type of foundation that such a commitment should be built upon, and went on to say that if I hypothetically got engaged I’d want to reciprocate with a similarly sentimental gift. If not a physical item, then perhaps an all-expenses-paid weekend trip for him and a friend. Either that, or I’d insist on a very cheap stone if one is deemed “necessary” by him…there’s absolutely beautiful opal rings for under $150. He didn’t think a traditional man would go for it, but agreed that some modern men would likely be pleased by such a need for equality. I honestly think engagement rings are a waste of money regardless. Love and commitment are intangible concepts, and a shiny rock doesn’t represent them with any sort of justice.

    Of course, all this is mere discussion as I have no plans for marriage in this lifetime.

    To directly answer your questions;
    1. No, never have and likely never will. Unless the social expectations change drastically in the next decade or so, it’s doubtful any of us will ever see such a commercial. It’d involve the media attempting to persuade female TV watchers and magazine readers to spend large amounts of money on their menfolk, and it doesn’t seem as though such views would be welcomed in our culture. There’s no selling point if the audience laughs at or is offended by your commercial rather than agreeing with it.

    2. It’s highly offensive, of course. Not only do such advertising campaigns cater to the idea that women deserve something and men nothing, but these same advertisements are put forth in higher quantities during the holiday season…a time when suicide/depression rates brought on by thoughts of being alone are highest. Preying on the fears of men (who commit suicide far more than women due to fewer support systems) at such a sensitive time of the year is immoral. I can certainly imagine men who propose to a girlfriend simply to relieve themselves of such fears. On the other hand, I’ve yet to meet a woman who is put off by the concept of an engagement ring, though some have agreed it “shouldn’t cost more than $1,000”.

    Your final observation is pretty spot on, Daccu65. I expect that as time goes on and more men become mgtow, it’ll be very easy to tell which women truly do desire equality and which were only giving lip service. Not that it will matter to most mgtow anyway, but for those who still desire casual relationships with women this shall make choosing a FwB easier.

    Thanks for stopping by again and bringing up such valid topics. Your thoughts are always welcome.

  74. @Daccu65

    In answer to your questions:

    #1. Nope, nary a one.

    #2. I hadn’t thought about it much before, but now that I’ve read your comment I shall henceforth feel mildly offended by engagement ring advertisements. It’s an insult to the intelligence of a man. The expensive ring is just one more thing for her to keep when, as likely as not, she kicks him out before the fifth anniversary.

  75. Back @ Cill
    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    That said, I didn’t explain my “mild offense” at the ads very well. Okay, I know that the diamond/jewelry companies are only trying to sell their products and I could very well be reading more into the ads than really exists. However, when some marketing guru comes up with the “I found the perfect girl, now I have to find the perfect ring” sort of ad, he or she is making an insulting assumption.

    The (in my opinion) insulting assumption is that the ring itself is going to have a significant impact on if the woman says yes or no. In order for this to be an effective marketing strategy the primary target of these ads, the men, have to believe that the quality of the ring can make the difference between a “yes” and a “no”. To me, this is implying that men have to believe that women are materialistic.

    I, as a man who once “popped the question”, find this mildly insulting. However, I would imagine that women would find it even more insulting, as it suggests that men must believe that they are materialistic to the point that the quality of the ring may be just as important as the man asking the question.

    I welcome other perspectives.

    daccu65.

  76. daccu65,

    I see what you mean and agree with you.

    I wonder if the ring itself will influence the woman’s response to a proposal? I’m sure it does, in a lot of cases. If so, I’m more insulted by the reality the advertisements are reflecting than by the jewelry companies or their advertisers. The women who are not going to be influenced by the quality of the ring are entitled to feel insulted by their sisters too.

  77. 1. End of the archaic practice of marriage. Freedom to be a man. End of manipulation by all females. End of theft of my money and utility.

    2. It has been mostly ignored. The few times it has been presented have been immediately demonized.

    3. It is bigger. A “marriage strike” means that we will eventually come back to the table once terms are struck. This is a movement to never be sent to the altar and terminate the institution.

    4. N/A

    5. Never married. Never WILL marry either.

    6. Jury is still out.

    7. 32

    8. Steady LTR. Looking to change this in the future. Too much emotional bullshit.

    9. Bachelors. Want a MBA, but don’t see any point in it at this time.

    10. “None of your **** business” – Ron Swanson

    11. Misogyny today is thrown around like the word “shit”. There are few real misogynist practitioners in the world. Most men have a HARD time ignoring our innate programming to love, care, protect, and be admired by women. Misandry however is the real out of control beast. (Fun fact: when typing this paragraph “misogyny” was even spell checked right, and “Misandry” got a mispelled red underline and “Misaddress” as a recommendation)

    Men, because we are innately competitive against one another, don’t care about other men’s plight unless we know the guy on a personal level or can empathize. Government doesn’t care about men’s plight. Women don’t care about men’s plight (look at how much attention men being VIOLENTLY raped in prison gets), I can tell you for a fact NO one gives a shit about men and we are simply shamed into “manning up”, “grow up”, and “stop being a virgin”.

    12. “What religion am I? Well, I’m a practicing none of your **** business.”. – Ron Swanson

    13. I lean to think AWALT. I have seen only Karen Straughn and a VERY few others. That’s it. Such numbers are negligible.

    14. Not sure if there are any. I think society in general is on a collision course with eventual collapse. In fact, I already know Russia, China, and the US are in a new cold war with all the proxy wars springing up, and they are in a collision course which all three see tactical nuclear strikes as an option better than financial collapse if the currency war they are already engaged in takes a turn for the worst for the said country.

    This warmongering state with insane debt collapses while I’m alive, women will be probably worth less than a can of spam as it was in Bosnia. Women don’t exactly bring anything to the table other than sex and producing/rearing children. Otherwise they generally consume resources, time, and lesser security/mobility. I mean you can find real uses for a cigarette for those with a green thumb. A man can contribute, is expendable, and tends to bring such needed work skills women don’t like to dabble in. I a regular man can handle guns and ammo well. I can metal work and wood work. All women I know immediately can’t do any of the three.

    15. I could care less. As far as I’m concerned they have gone WGTOW for decades at men’s financial expense.

    16. I don’t care. That’s her business.

    17. I am trying to stop my ingrained chivalry habits. I have to be conscious enough to tell myself “no. They are stronk independent womyn.”

    18. N/A

  78. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

    *Freedom from social pressures.

    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

    *Villainized, but with any type of group, there are some bad apples that ruin it for the rest.

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

    *Marriage strike is partly why I joined.

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?

    *Been single a while and I generally prefer it.

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

    *Never married

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

    *Legally married and emotionally married are pretty different things.

    7. How old are you? 28

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

    *Lots of casual one nighters

    9. What is your level of education?

    *Masters

    10. What ethnicity are you?

    *Hispanic/White

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

    *Some of the worst posts are fake. MGTOW is about ignoring women, not being discriminatory/violent against them.

    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

    *Atheism

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

    *I agree with NAWALT. My problem is societal norms during the dating, “game.”

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

    Extreme Feminism, Divorce Courts and monogamy need to change.

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

    *Good! There will be many lonely people, but maybe society will improve.

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

    *They are the ones I have one night stands with. 🙂

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

    *I still feel obligated to pick up the tab at a restaurant since women get upset with me if I don’t and I’ll pay for her meal just to avoid that crap.

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

    *Nah

  79. The questions I have are;

    1. What does MGTOW mean to you?

    -Pretty straightforward: a man going his own way. Living life on his terms not only in relationships to women and the state (minimal *formal* economic output to ensure less taxation for a system that, on the whole, is biased against men – specifically the courts, education, and the media) and, most importantly, an expression of my individual autonomy. Though I entered the “movement” bitter after marital infidelity, and escaped without being put through the ringer, the movement has come to mean for me becoming the best man I can be; adequate financial preparation; hobbies; working out; etc. The important thing to remember, especially for “outsiders” is that it’s not really a movement. It’s monolithic and there is no application. It is, in its purest sense, doing your own thing, whatever that is.

    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?

    -Disgusted but not in the least surprised by it.

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?

    -It really depends. I think MGTOW, for some, is a part of it (sometimes consciously, sometimes not so consciously). There are many guys out there who are MGTOW, but simply haven’t been exposed to its portrayal as a “movement.”

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway? Edit: Since MGTOWs can be married this sounds like a leading question, which I didn’t take into account when making the initial survey. Please either disregard, or only answer if you’re currently unmarried/separated/divorced. Thanks.

    -I don’t really care about the label. I have been married. I’m currently separated, with a divorce pending. After the shock of infidelity and a true understanding of the hypergamous nature of most women, I came around. I have never been happier, more productive, or had more meaning in my life than I do currently as a single, unattached guy.

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?

    -Separated, with a pending divorce.

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?

    -Bullshit. The premise of MGTOW is fairly democratic and most guys espousing this as a “stone tablet” are still suffering the trauma brought about through divorce and unfair custody arrangements. For me, MGTOW is a lifestyle predicated on a foundation of deep self-searching. I don’t have the right to assign or revoke MGTOW status. I don’t care about the title. Those who are truly going their own way don’t typically get caught in the internal dick-swinging that emerges in some of the infighting.

    7. How old are you?

    -28

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?

    -Completely single, in control of my sex drive, and in the best shape of my life (even better than my time in the military). I have no desire for romantic and/or sexual relationships with women of any kind, though I wouldn’t say I try to actively to avoid them.

    9. What is your level of education?

    -Bachelors Degree; current graduate student.

    10. What ethnicity are you?

    -White/Caucasian/Whatever the least offensive designation for that term of the day is.

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?

    -There is. However, you also have to consider the context and trauma that many men have endured before passing judgment.

    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?

    -Agnostic

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.

    -Like many MGTOW, i don’t have the time or energy to search for a purple-spotted unicorn during a blue moon…

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?

    -Our country’s too far gone; the Millennials in general, and Millennial women in particular.

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?

    -Have at it.

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?

    -Have at it.

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?

    -Negligibly.

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.

  80. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences and wisdom! Hopefully it will aid more young men and let them know options other than marriage are viable.

  81. Are you still taking replies for this? Or is it over now?

    And please delete my previous comment. I did not read the thing completely before pasting my email as my name…

  82. Sorry for the late moderation and reply. The latest WordPress update has disabled mobile notification icons on my phone, so I didn’t see your comments til now.

    Anyway…yes! You can absolutely go ahead and reply to this survey, or even just tell your story however you’d like. I’m not blogging at my own place here for the time being…just commenting over at Spawny’s Space, really…but this post still gets the most views. Please, feel free to share whatever you want with the readers and commenters here!

  83. 1. What does MGTOW mean to you?
    Men Going Their Own Way. Basically, men who don’t get married, as marriage is no longer beneficial for a man. In fact, it is very risky and more often than not, turns out to be a failure.

    2. What’s your reaction to the way MGTOW is spoken of/presented in the media?
    Quite frankly, I have not really heard MGTOW spoken of much in the mainstream media. Mainly in Youtube, and maybe one or two internet articles. And even those who do speak of it, they say it is small and has no impact. In this, they are right. There are only few MGTOWs (or rather, men who label themselves as MGTOW), and they don’t really have a major impact on society. For instance, go and check any MGTOW channel on Youtube. There are not that many subs. The biggest channel is Sandman I think, and even he has 40k subs. That’s it.

    3. Do you think MGTOW is necessarily a part of the “marriage strike” or is it separate but overlapping?
    MGTOW is most definitely a part of the marriage strike. In fact, there are many men out there who actually live MGTOW lifestyles, but just don’t realize it. This is evident if you surf the comments on many MGTOW channels. You will eventually find a bunch of comments from new guys who say they were already living like this, but just never had a label for it. MGTOW is the label for such men, an idea they can stand behind.

    4. Would you ever *not* be MGTOW or are you happiest being single anyway?
    I think I am better off being single. The laws do not favor men at all in regards to relationships, marriage, divorce, etc. Just too risky, and insufficient benefit to go along with that risk. It would have been nice, but…

    5. Are you divorced, never married, widowed, or married?
    Never married.

    6. Most would say that if you’re married, you can’t truly be MGTOW. Thoughts?
    That is true. There are very few “rules” in MGTOW, and one of them is that you should not get married. Yes, there are a few married men who visit MGTOW content and call themselves MGTOW. Quite frankly, these are men who learned about MGTOW only after they got married. If you read their comments, you can tell they are mostly unhappy with their marriages. I don’t know what to say about them… If they wish to identify as MGTOW, that is upto them. But since they are married, they can’t really call themselves MGTOW. I pity such men…

    7. How old are you?
    28

    8. Do you have a steady LTR, Friend with Benefits arrangement, engage in casual hookups, or avoid women altogether?
    Avoid women altogether, for relationships. Have many female friends, some even quite close. I don’t mention MGTOW to them at all, though. Let me point out, I am a virgin. I have never had sex, with neither man, woman nor beast. And not for lack of opportunity. I have had a few women “throw” themselves at me at parties and in life, without me even trying, and I rejected them gently each time. Mostly older women, but they were not bad looking at all. Not worth the time, not worth the risk. Their reactions have taught me that women cannot handle rejection as well as men. I have been called “fag” more than once. I just let it slide off me… But I am careful not to anger them. As we all know, hell hath no wrath like a woman scorned. You hurt her feelings, she will hunt you..

    9. What is your level of education?
    Bachelors degree. Engineering. Work in computer field.

    10. What ethnicity are you?
    Hispanic

    11. There are numerous claims that misogyny runs rampant through the MGTOW movement. How would you respond to this claim?
    To an extent, that is true. Some of the YT channel operators are quite misogynistic. I am subbed to Sandman, Turd Flinging Monkey and RazorBladeKandy2. They can be quite critical of women and female behavior in general, but they don’t “hate” women. Hate is a strong word, and implies taking active action against something. Most MGTOW don’t hate women, but rather don’t trust them or fear their power in modern day society.
    There are a few however, who are quite hateful. For example, MGTOW UNITED. I abhorred his channel due to the vile content that was in it. However, it looks like his channel is no longer up..
    Also, some of the commentators can be quite hateful as well. Well, every group has it’s crazies… Feminism is proof of that.
    Please understand, MGTOW is not a “movement”. It is more like a philosophy, a way of life. There are no marches in the streets, no massive organized group, no effort to change laws, no fundraising, nothing. At most, a few Youtube channels and a website or two. That’s it. MGTOWs are not going to bother trying to “fix society”, because most don’t care anymore. “Swallow the red pill”, decide not to get married for your own good, learn about female nature and how to protect yourself, and then go and do your own thing. MGTOW come from all walks of life. Different races, different religions, different political stances, etc. The greatest benefit MGTOW has been to me is that it opened my eyes to female emotional manipulation. I was unaware of how manipulative women can be, even the ones in your own family. I have now learned how to recognize and avoid/counter it. I was never aware of it before…

    12. What (if any) religion do you currently follow?
    Christian

    13. Thoughts on NAWALT vs AWALT, given that many MGTOW have daughters/other female relatives that are decent people and have been raised well.
    While there is always a chance that a woman could be “a good one”, it is just not worth the risk. Given that the divorce rate is so high, and that the vast majority of the divorces are initiated by the woman, it is simply not worth. Men who have grown in this environmet have seen time and time again, their fathers, brothers, uncles, friends get completely screwed over by women and the state. The state enables this, and so we reject it. It would have been nice to get settled with a nice woman, but in this current social/political environment, it is not worh it. You read and see with your own eyes, story after story. Even marriages that have lasted 15 years breakdown sometimes. Heck, just last week I read a story of a 95 year old man who divorced his wife of 30 years, and the alimony was set to more than what he earns. He is 95 years old. What income is he going to generate? Well, marriage is one bullet we MGTOWs can dodge…

    14. What are the 3 biggest aspects of society that would have to change to make you consider not being MGTOW? If there aren’t any, why not?
    Don’t kid yourself. It won’t change. And you know it. I could give a more detailed answer, but that is just a waste at this point..

    15. What do you think of the concept of WGTOW?
    I laughed when I first heard of it. They are just copying MGTOW, that is all. Heck, even their sites state this:
    http://www.womengoingtheirownway.com/about-us.html
    MGTOW is mentioned in the very first sentence. Some women can never just leave men be. These always feel the need to take what they have. They can’t even let us have this for ourselves… Ah well, to each his own. If this is a “thing” now, then let it be so.

    16. Some women are truly happiest being single, and aren’t interested in marriage or traditional dating. What do you think of these single-at-heart women, if anything?
    Don’t really care, either way. Yeah, they exist. Let them do their thing.
    I can tell you one thing though, there are way more men who are happy being single than women. The below kind of prove this:

    And I remember reading somewhere, in more than one place, that women are increasingly wanting to get married, but men don’t. That actually makes total sense. Marriage is beneficial for women, so women want it. Marriage is not so benefical for men(at least in the West, in the modern day), so more men don’t want to get married. It is just a logical thing.

    17. Chivalry and other double standards: Even being MGTOW, how often do they impact you in daily life?
    Double standards do exist, definitely. And they have some impact. As long as you avoid the situations where you can get in trouble, you’re good. The only main problem is the workplace. For that…. Well, I am a survivor. I save my money and use it wisely. And I work well, and am respected at my job. Hopefully, nothing bad happens. Feminist craziness is not a thing there, so I should be good. Of course, no one knows what the future holds. But that is the fun part about life, isn’t it? The mystery of the unknown…

    18. Any other information you’d like to impart.
    Regarding the future of MGTOW, whether it actually has a future, whether the content will be banned due to “harassment of women” or some PC bullshit, it is entirely possible that the MGTOW label will fall out of fashion. In fact, there are some folks within the manosphere who have already turned against it, for various reasons. Regardless, the phenomenon of men no longer willing to get married will only grow. That is unstoppable, and the measures that could be taken to stop the trend will never happen, as the state and the man-haters will never allow it.
    Due to the unorganized nature of MGTOW, there are many ideas and schools of thought within it. Some directly opposite to each other. Well, that is the beauty of Men Going Their Own Way, each has his own way.

    If you wish to contact me for further conversation, please feel free to do so. I have noticed that the people who “liked” this are mostly women, and the main author is herself a woman. Most curious indeed..

  84. Good day, Anonymous Dude.
    Thanks for adding your wisdom to my blog. It was a fantastic response, and I hope that those new to MGTOW will find it helpful. You certainly covered all the bases quite well!

    While there’s a few points I’d like to respond to (including offering my sympathies for women calling your sexuality into question…I’ve been called a “dyke” or “lesbo” for declining dates and empathize with your frustration), I’m needing to get ready for my shift. So just wanted to point out that, despite the reality of your #11 response…that there seem to be few actual MGTOW…that your #18 response is also true. Yes, there are relatively few MGTOW. One can’t even reliably use subscription numbers to determine population either, as *I’m* subscribed to both Sandman and Turd Flinging Monkey too, along with a host of other MGTOW channels, and other curious but not MGTOW men/women likely are as well.

    But it’s still important to realize that the philosophy *is* growing! The Pew Research Center recently found that 70% of men ages 20-34 were unmarried in 2015. Some are undoubtedly looking, but methinks a more than decent number are perpetual bachelors, which is great. Men need to be able to realize that there’s more to life than marriage or dating, and yes, even sex if they wish to remain celibate. Our society in the US still attempts to shame men who are “Peter Pans” and “refuse to become real men”, which is a huge, revolting double standard to the “u go gurrrl” crap that says women can live how they want and do no wrong. Yes, I am shamed by men and women for being 31 and single, and yes it does hurt at times, but it is not as bad as some of the stories told here and on other blogs.
    MGTOW will continue to grow.
    Men will continue to forge their own paths. And maybe, just maybe, double standards will finally fall by the wayside in favor of more equality for males.

  85. “…and the main author herself is a woman.”

    Yes, well…I can’t help that fact. Was born that way, y’see. But if you skim through some of my other posts with the tag “gender dysphoria”, you’ll see at least a small part of why I support MGTOW so much.

  86. “I’ve been called a dyke or lesbo for declining dates and empathize with your frustration” -> I’m sorry you had to go through that. From my experiences and what I have learned from others by sharing, I came to realize that they respond like that because they do not know how to handle the rejection. They are used to men throwing themselves at them, and when a man comes along who rejects them, they think it is some sort of insult to their beauty or their personality or something. They thrive on male attention and their motivation/self-esteem/ego boost comes from that. So, they use the sexuality insult as a means to protect their ego/self-esteem. “It can’t be that something is wrong with me, it must be something wrong with him” kind of logic. I imagine it must be the same for you also. The men said that to “defend their honor/pride” or some crap like that…

    “One can’t even reliably use subscription numbers to determine population either, as *I’m* subscribed to both Sandman and Turd Flinging Monkey too, along with a host of other MGTOW channels, and other curious but not MGTOW men/women likely are as well” -> Yes, that is true. Which means the number of men who identify with the label of MGTOW are even less.. On top of that, not all the men who identify as MGTOW are men of “high quality” (as defined by women). Some are divorced men who have been completely fucked over by the state and their ex-wives, some are guys who have no options in life and go to MGTOW as a refuge. And some are guys who have options and good careers, but realize that marriage has lost relevance and thus decide to not pursue it. Once a man decides not to pursue marriage, it is a life altering decision. Almost every aspect of his life is impacted.
    I have seen more than one woman on MGTOW channels. Boggles me why, but ok, as you wish. Have had friendly chats with a few. And then there are a few women, just a small handful, who come to criticize. But they always fall short of making good arguments and they eventually disappear after a while. I have heard that some MGTOW channel operators block such women; I imagine it is true. But I think that some like Sandman don’t, as I see such comments on occasion..

    Regarding the Pew Research Center stats, while it is true that more men are unmarried, they ignore the fact that people are getting married at later ages also. A more accurate stat would have been for ages 20-45. After 45, the chances of getting married are slim.
    And even though marriages are going down, relationships are not (or at least not much). More people are living in cohabitation relationships. This is where common law marriage comes into play. A guy can still get screwed over by this law (depending on the state). Also, if any kids pop out, child support. Just simply not getting married is not enough, the state will still find ways to screw men over. All the while driving men further away.
    What happens in the future really depends on how the present scenario plays out, and what new laws come into play. Well, we shall see what happens next.. It is kind of sad, really. It should not have to be like this…

    Regarding the shaming, unmarried men receive more because an unmarried man is a threat. He is refusing to “play the game”. Married women don’t like him, because they are afraid of their husbands getting bad ideas. Married men are secretly jealous, and desire the freedom that comes with the unmarried status. Depending on whether the man is a “catch” or not, unmarried women rejected by him despise him. Plus, the fact that he is not “contributing” to society makes him sort of a social outcast. But a man can survive. If he has a strong social cirle, that fulfills the social and emotional needs. If he has good money and a good decent job, he can survive financially.

    Double standards will never go away. The simple reason is because men are held to higher standards of responsibility and accountability. Analysing the laws, policies and social norms, this becomes evident. And due to this, men face harsher judgements and punishments.

    You do your own thing, sister. Ignore anyone who tries to control you. All power to you, and good luck as well.

    P.S.: There are quite a few folks who blame feminism for the fall of marriage. While toxic feminism has a role to play in it, it is not the only factor, nor even the primary factor. I can explain my views on this, if you and your fans are interested…

  87. I had not actually gone through this blog, until now. “Gender dysphoria”…. Now your interest is starting to make more sense.

  88. I have been active in the Men’s/Father’s movements since the 1970’s and have seen a lot. I was present on the Web many years ago when the MGTOW concept was first widely discussed. The point of it was that men should not do ANYTHING just because it was socially or culturally expected.

    Do whatever you wish, but only after deep soul searching and examining all the issues involved in your decision. That is, find your own way, don’t just imitate your father and the neighbor men…

    While at the beginning, it was assumed that many, perhaps most, men would thus rule out legal marriage, as AD says and for the reasons he lists. But, it was also assumed that some men would look at everything and decide to give marriage a try, because they believed it was right for them after examining all the evidence.

    A couple very aggressive bachelors came busting in and decreed Men Going Their Own Way actually meant Men Going Their Own Way Unless They Choose Marriage. Other bachelors agreed with them, and now many men honestly believe no married man can be MGTOW.

    I married my wife in 1975. It was 1985 when the stupid concept of marital rape swept the land. I announced at a Father’s Right meeting that it no longer made sense to marry. The guarantee of marital sex was used by every SUCCESSFUL society from ancient times, to motivate men to marry and turn over large amounts of assets to help women raise their babies.

    So, marriage itself, in every SUCCESSFUL society, for ever and ever, included the concept of permanent consent to sex by the woman. There were laws which allowed women to petition for legal separation which meant the consent was withdrawn.

    If a woman did not want to have sex with a man, she simply didn’t marry him, and thus he was not obliged to turn over large portions of his assets to her as his obligation of marriage.

    With behavior reminding me of the grunting and squealing of the hogs I slopped on my father’s farm in the Fifties, the feminists decreed that while women obtained many benefits from marriage, they had to give nothing in exchange. A Real Man will be more than happy to turn over his pay check until he dies of old age, with no promise of sex in exchange. Hee, hee.

    The only reason anyone gets married since then is because so many men think they are special and different, and his sweetie would not dare withhold sex. No society has survived long without marriage involving men who receive sex in exchange for their part in marriage.

    Essentially, though I was preaching against marriage before some of these guys were born, and also was married before conditions rendered marriage a very bad choice, nope, I am disqualified, no matter how much I do GO MY OWN WAY, because the bachelors have taken over the movement? Enough already.

  89. Note from Tarnished
    Although I am letting through Anon age 73’s comment in the interest of allowing a different viewpoint, I wish to state that I, the author of this blog, do NOT agree with his views regarding marital rape. It is a horrific crime, a form of obvious sexual abuse, and can be perpetuated or suffered by both male and female partners. I believe in bodily autonomy for men and women, and personally deny the concept of permanent consent for either a husband or wife.

    That being said, sexual intimacy is (for the overwhelming majority of couples) a very big part of the marriage, and consistently denying sexual outlet to one’s spouse…again, male or female…is likewise a form of abuse. Sex should be freely given and received in a marital partnership, not used as a tool or painfully forced on the person one supposedly “loves”.

  90. Anonymous Dude,
    It’s alright. Not your fault, obviously. You are correct in that it typically comes from those who are unable or unused to handling rejection, no matter how polite.

    Ugh. I know it is not your own wording, but I despise the concept of only certain men being “high quality”. I view most men as being thus, and only those who are hurtful or cruel towards others as being “low quality”.
    I sometimes comment on MGTOW videos…haven’t in a while…but my username never outs me as physically female, nor do I bring it up in conversation. So I have a clit instead of a penis…so what? If I’ve a point to make, it should stand on it’s own merit, not be “wrong” or “right” because of my sex. I am not automatically incorrect because of having breasts any more than I deserve a cookie for agreeing with the videos.

  91. Anonymous Dude,
    I agree with your thoughts on the information provided by Pew. Those would have been better ranges, and yes, relationships still happen without marriage. Still, men *must* be cautious even then, precisely due to the reasons you state. Hell, there are men who haven’t had kids, who pay child support! I’m currently waiting for a Bachelor Tax to be implemented… 👿
    If I may, it seems unmarried men are deemed threatening. Unmarried women are, in my experiences, deemed a waste. How dare *you* not get married and provide for a family?! How dare *I* not get married and make a family?!

    Pshaw to all of them. We shall do what we wish with our individual lives, not live then for others.

  92. @Anonymous age 73: Wow, so you’re old school, huh. Your information regarding the history is interesting. So that explains why some MGTOWs go on about married MGTOWs… I always thought if they are married, then what’s the point of calling yourself MGTOW…

    Regarding the marital rape thing… I find myself agreeing with Tarnished here. It is still a thing. There are situations where the man has violently raped the wife because of some reason. Those are still counted as rape, and are still wrong, even if they are married.
    While I agree that it is illogical for a woman to marry a man if she does not want to have sex with him, the solution to this is not to discount marital rape, but rather to make divorce not so punitive to the man.

    And if the wife is trying to play mind games with the husband by denying sex, there are games he can play in turn. Depends on the couple and the situation…

    Are you still married? Just curious… You did not specifically say you are not married anymore…

    @Tarnished:
    “If I’ve a point to make, it should stand on it’s own merit” -> Fair enough. You are correct, of course.

    “there are men who haven’t had kids, who pay child support” -> Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, I remember this. I checked the logic for this, and it is pretty messed up. But whatever, just another anti-male law…

    “I’m currently waiting for a Bachelor Tax to be implemented” -> You know, the Swedish feminists actually tried to implement this. Well, sort of. They called it man tax, and for funding [female] domestic violence victims. But they failed, and there was even backlash against them for it…
    In USA, if they do try to implement it, what they will probably do is increase the tax in general, and then provide tax credits for families. Thus, automatically, bachelors would be taxed more. However, this would mean that both unmarried males and females would be affected, and the feminists would never agree with that. They would then have to find some excuse to make it male only, but I don’t see how they would do that or justify it… If even the nutty Swedish feminists failed, then the UK and American feminists will definitely not succeed. This is as per the current social/political environment. The only way I see it happening would be if something like the heavy impact of the herbivore men in Japan happens in USA, and it would likely be implemented to ensure Social Security keeps functioning.
    This is kind of tricky to predict, as there are many factors to consider. The primary difference between Japan and USA is that immigration is big in USA, so there are sufficient people to keep USA running. While I have heard the bachelor tax idea before, I think it is highly unlikely to ever occur in USA. It really depends on how the situation in the country proceeds…

    “Unmarried women are, in my experiences, deemed a waste” -> True.. Society does think like that.. Never thought of it that way before..

  93. There are situations where the man has violently raped the wife because of some reason. Those are still counted as rape, and are still wrong, even if they are married.
    It can even happen to men. Not necessarily in the exact same fashion, but forcing someone…even your spouse…into sex is just disgusting. I don’t understand how one could want sex with a partner who has said no for a legitimate reason. Maybe they’re sick. Incredibly tired after working a 14 hour shift. Are on a temporary medication that makes them very dry or causes discomfort during erections. Heck, they could be recuperating from a surgery. Is it frustrating when one’s sexual partner declines sex with you? Yes. It is. It’s happened to me numerous times, always because he is depressed or not feeling well physically. Thing is, I know I could most likely do things that would still make him capable of getting horny and “ready”. But why the hell would I disrespect the body and mind of my best friend and lover like that, just to give myself selfish satisfaction? *shudder*

    Oh, child support laws are so very fucked up. Men who have to pay for kids who aren’t theirs if the real father can’t be found. A man who was a sperm donor who was forced to pay support for the kid who was created using his random DNA. And let’s not forget those who are married and unable to obtain a DNA test. The whole thing is just pathetic.

  94. It can happen to men too, yeah, that’s true. But society doesn’t really care when it happens to men, only when it happens to women…

    You sound like a decent person. A pity we never met.

    I heard about that sperm donor story, my first thought was “dumbass”… Who in their right mind would answer such an ad? Poor dude…
    But then again, fools suffer. This has always been the case, even in history. There is a saying: fools never learn from their mistakes, smart men learn from their mistakes, wise men learn from other people’s mistakes. With this, now we know how messed up it really is…
    Feminists are not really to blame for this. Yes, they share a portion of the blame, but the main reason is simple economics. If the daddy does not pay, the state has to pay via the welfare system. And that is a great burden on the nation. So, shift the bill to the daddy. Doesn’t matter if he is the actual daddy, doesn’t matter whatever his situation, etc. It is just about the money. And if he cant’/won’t pay, put him in prison. The private prison lobby is more than happy to oblige, as they profit too. Everyone profits; mommy profits, government profits, prisons profit. While the man gets screwed(but who cares about that, right?). This is just another clear-cut example of anti-male bias and male disposability… A man with no money is a useless man. Men are just tools, utilities to be used until they are no longer of use..
    Every MGTOW realizes this at some point, and becomes angry and bitter over this. The red pill is a tough pill to swallow. But after some time, the anger cools and you accept reality.

  95. Tarnished, I had no intention to offend. But, this shows just how our society has messed up marriage. You can’t really even understand what I am saying, can you?

    Fifty years ago, if I had said the same thing to women (actually I did) they would simply have agreed with me because they all understood. You don’t want to have sex, don’t get married, or file for legal separation. They understood men simply would not fall into marital harness without blanket consent to sex.

    As far as all the ‘what if’s’ those are all based on the standard misandrist feminist ‘men are beasts’ propaganda. And, would pay no attention to a tired or over-worked or sick wife. When most men were raised with an involved father in the family men just didn’t act that way.

    And, that sort of treatment if it did occur was punishable, either by the neighbor men or her family, but IT WAS NOT RAPE!!!! Sorry you can’t get it; it’s not that complicated.

    Sorry you can’t understand it. That does not make me an ogre who thinks rape is okay.

    I am glad I am old. You young folks are going to pass through some unbelievable times as your views bear fruit. Please carry on.

  96. I do not think that you think rape is okay, Anon age 73. I just think our definitions are changing to encompass more situations. There is a difference between “not understanding” and simply not agreeing. I understand your viewpoint but do not agree with it, same as I understand those who think women are incapable of raping men, but do not agree with them.

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