Of Pride And Prejudice

Short post today folks, but it’s a topic that’s been in the back of my mind for a while now and I’m hoping it leads to some good discussion. Really, it’s two sides of one coin:

1. Why should one feel pride over something another has done?

2. Why should one feel guilty over something another has done?

Think about these two concepts for a bit. How have they impacted your own life? How have these concepts impacted male-female, hetero-homo, cis-trans, and caucasian-minority relations?

Should one feel pride for something one has little to no control over, like sex…height…ethnicity…orientation…gender, and so on? Is it possible to actually be prideful over words spoken and deeds performed by someone who, through an accident of birth, shares a common trait with you? Is a high school dropout who works as a bagger in a grocery justified in feeling a sense of pride over the accomplishments of Leonardo DaVinci, simply because they are both male?

Likewise, should one feel guilt over actions that members of a common group have done, even if said actions occurred before one was born? Is a young woman in Denmark supposed to feel guilty over the fact that the SCUM Manifesto was written and cheered for by other members of her sex?

Is there ever a time when it’s acceptable for punishment of the sins of the parent to be visited on the child? Or should we push forward with the knowledge of what our forebearers have both accomplished and perpetuated, and treat each new life as an individual responsible for their words and deeds alone?

I realize that these are difficult questions, but they are the first ones I think of when I read various blogs and articles about the fight for social equality and fairness. As always, I’d like to read everyone’s opinion while still keeping this a safe space for all types of people. Let’s hear your thoughts…


20 thoughts on “Of Pride And Prejudice

  1. People need scapegoats to explain away their own failures.
    They also want to identify with the sucesses of their race and ancestors.
    It’s ALWAYS the other guy who is evil, dumb, and stupid.
    I have no trouble admitting the evil deeds of my “people.” I am a Jew (in name only.) My “people” have done much to harm society. I will not defend such things as feminism, marxism, media degeneracy, and misconsegnation

  2. Yes and no. When talking about stuff like things characters do in movies or tv, no. That is imaginary in the first place. When talking about basing this pride or shame on skin color or gender again no. There is no connection between us based on these traits. However when taking pride in an accomplishment based on shared nationality or culture YES. Great achievements while preformed by individuals require the support and assistance of nations and cultures. It is just fine for my Grandfather to have been proud of the Moon Landing. While he didn’t make the rockets or fly in the space ship, he did make the hotdogs that the piolts ate with their families a the cook out before the launch. This is a very minor contribution and given the scope of the project almost every american contributed to the moon landing in a similar way. This is something that is worthy of taking pride in.

  3. @Lon

    If we want to be technical about it, I’m Jewish too. My great grandmother and great grandfather were of the Jewish religion when they grew up in Germany. They came to America in the late 1920’s, but did indeed lose family members to the evils of the Nazi party.

    So what of them? Were they to both feel badly for being of German descent while simultaneously feeling proud of their Jewish religion?

    Btw, I don’t believe that the Jewish people (whether of ethic or religious origin) have done any more to harm society than any other particular group. I also had to edit part of your comment because it was somewhat anti-Semitic. Please remember that this is a safe space for *everyone*.

  4. @GNL

    Hmm, interesting take on it. I like your point about notable individuals requiring the support of their culture/immediate community to attain their achievements. (Though it’s probably worth mentioning that some men and women have been successful despite their cultures, rather than because of.)

    Why, then, do you think some feminists and mras speak about the opposite sex the way they do, if there’s little reason for individual men/women to feel shame or guilt for the actions of others of their sex?

  5. I don’t see much of MRAs trying to shame WOMEN for the actions of others. MRAs do a great deal of trying to shame Feminists. By self labeling as feminist the individual at very least is tacitly supporting the bigoted feminists. In my opinion this does fall under the same generality as culture.
    Feminists, based on Patriarchy Theory, do think that men should feel shame and guilt because “penis”.

    Just because there is little to no reason to feel pride or shame or guilt because of incidental biological similarities doesn’t mean people don’t. Just look at White Nationalism. These people are proud of their skin color.

    Is and should are rarely the same.

  6. @GNL

    In particular, I was thinking of the men (claiming to be in the MRM…it’s possible they aren’t), who state that women as a group are disloyal, narcissistic, materialistic, only appreciate men for their utility, or are incapable of love.

    And yes, I agree that patriarchy theory as stated by feminists is rather bigoted. Men should not be made to feel bad for being born male any more than women should be made to feel bad for being born female.

    White Nationalists are not so much proud if their skin color as they are blatantly racist against everyone who doesn’t share said color. There’s a huge difference between me saying “I like my German heritage and it’s traditions” and someone saying “I think that the world should be segregated according to skin color and country of ancient origin.”

  7. Very few MRA are good at Double-Plus Good Phrasiology. My understanding of intent when MRA’s say “women as a group are disloyal, narcissistic, materialistic and only appreciate men for their utility” is different than yours.

    Time for some Double-Plus good phrasiology.
    Women are people. People are disloyal. Women are people.
    Women are people. People are narcissistic. Women are people.
    Women are people. People are materialistic. Women are people.
    Women are people People value men for their utility. Women are people.
    The issues we face in gender relations are that the social cultural and legal restrictions on these behaviors have been removed from women thanks to feminism. Unchecked materialism narcissism and disloyalty will destroy a people/culture/nation very very quickly.

  8. It wouldn’t be offensive if they phrased it as “People are capable of being materialistic. Women are people. Ergo, women are capable of being materialistic.” This is pretty sound reasoning in my opinion.

    However, when it’s phrased as “People are capable of being materialistic. Women are people. Ergo, women are capable of being materialistic and are so to a significant degree more than men because vagina”, *that* is where I see an issue.

    I have no problem with saying a certain sex is X, because as you point out, human beings in general can be X. Trying to say that women are “naturally” narcissistic is akin to saying men are “naturally” aggressive. Neither are true.

  9. I agree there is a real difference. To say that women and only women are narcissistic is just as sexist as saying men and only men are violent.

    Most of what I see in MHRM writings is a failure of phrasiology to make this distinction clear, not the intent to say narcissism or materialism are female traits.

    Women are not naturally more narcissistic. Women have less restrictions and accountability to keep their narcissism in check.

  10. Yup. I agree. The US has a problem with making sure both sexes get the whole concept of responsibility and accountability for deeds and words.

  11. It’s just sour grapes. Vagina envy. Or, better said, being envious of other
    men who enjoy acess to the woman’s vagina that they don’t.
    There IS no answer to this problem. You can’t turn back the clock. And if you
    rape you will eventually be captured, and YOU will get raped.
    “He that kills with the sword, MUST be killed with the sword.”
    “He that leads into captivity, MUST be lead into captivity.”
    “Here is the PATIENCE AND THE FAITH of the SAINTS.”
    Life is NOT fair. It was NEVER intended to be fair.
    The French philospher Albert Camus said, “The ultimate question of life
    is whether it is worth living.” It’s akin to “To be or not to be.”
    That’s why I like Astrology, It provides a road map/explaination about why
    a person is as they are. Women, (Except for my dear departed mother)
    have ALWAYS hated me, from the little girl who gave away her brother’s
    cat to my family and told her brother I had stolen it, to the vicious girl
    bully who followed me to and from school and made my life a hell.
    Some school kids asked me what I was so distraught about. I pointed out
    my antaganist and they punched her. She started to cry, and I was concerned
    for her!
    But I can’t blame the entire female gender. In my astrological chart, I have
    Moon (The woman’s planet) square Venus (Another woman’s planet) square
    Saturn in the 5th house (The house of pleasure) Women have an instinctual
    need to hate me.
    “Hope springs eternal!” That’s the reason for the saps and suckers of the
    mannosphere. “The Great Pumpkin WILL return THIS October 31st! Just
    wait and see. I no longer wait for Godat. It’s a better way to live.

  12. @Lon

    I don’t believe in astrology or horoscopes, but most of my family does so I understand where you’re coming from. I’m sorry to hear about the bullies you’ve had to put up with. Horrible people are everywhere, and the female sex is often crueler than that of the male. Or at least, I’ve only been physically hurt by boys…girls hurt you emotionally, mentally, and physically.

    If it makes any difference, I don’t hate you. I try not to hate anyone, though I admit to failure in this attempt.

  13. You should just do away with both Pride and Guilt all together I say. Be humble and forgiving (forgiving of yourself as well as others) instead.

  14. On women and narcissism:
    It is my belief that a number of men believe most/all women to be narcissistic, because said men are attracted to narcissistic women and hence non-narcissistic women are invincible to them.
    It’s often the case that when a man says “all women are X”, what he should be saying is “all the women I’m attracted to are X”, because the sample he’s using is predominantly women he’s attracted to.
    Likewise when a women says “all men are X”. They have normally reached this assertion from a very bias sample of men to whom they are attracted.

  15. That’s what I think happens in the majority of cases. It’s like when men/women complain about the fact the people they find at the bar scene aren’t classy, proper, gentlemanly/ladylike, or sober.

    Hello? You are trying to find a real diamond in a hill of costume jewelry. This is a bad plan for anyone…yet people are still surprised when they get the same results time and again.

  16. Come on, Tarn.
    If you agree that Jews were over-represented among societal “movers and shakers” in general, then there is no shame in admitting that some of them might be regarded as “villains”. That is, as long as it’s clear that for every Shulamith Firestone and Bernie Madoff there was Albert Einsten and Benoit Mandelbrot. In my opinion the net result is positive.
    Is it antisemitic to say that aloud? Disclaimer: I’m not a follower of Judaism nor of Jewish descent (at least several generations back).

  17. @Exfernal

    I’m not arguing that some people of the Jewish faith are “villainous”, just as I wouldn’t argue that some people of the Christian/Pagan/Satanist/Hindu/Buddhist/etc faiths couldn’t also be “villainous”. As GNL was pointing out, human beings devoid of any further distinctions, can be (and are) good or bad.

    My issue is when we get into conspiracy theories saying that the Jewish people, as some vast, perpetually connected conglomerate, are “villainous”.

    The same has been said about people of my faith (that we Pagans all have some super-secret anti-Christian agenda that apparently everyone knows about). It’s not factual about us, and it’s not factual about the Jews.

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