I Think I Met A MGTOW Today

Hi all. I just got back from doing some grocery shopping (my guinea pig demands romaine and blueberries on hot days like this 😛 ), and I could be wrong but I believe I met my first in-person MGTOW whilst in line to check out. Here’s what happened, tell me what you think.

I’m at the self checkout behind a lady with way too many items to be in our express lane. She is clearly rushed, and in her fevered bagging knocks over a bunch of those crappy celebrity/lifestyle magazines they keep at the register. She doesn’t pick them up, just glances at them and goes on bagging. Good doormat that I am, I pick the mags up and put them back, remarking negatively about the ultra-dramatic/expensive wedding that celebrity couple X has on one cover to the middle age guy behind me. This is the conversation that followed:

Me: Geez, can you believe spending $5 million on a single event? I know it’s supposed to be a “special day” but come on…

Guy: *scoffs* It’s only special for the woman, nobody cares what the hell the man is going through. F-ing ridiculous waste of time and money, marriage.

Me: *nods* I hear you. Marriage isn’t in my cards, but if it were I’d do a small ceremony…select family and friends of ours, probably at a hall or park. Nothing fancy or loud, y’know?

Guy: *looks at me oddly* What?

Me: What, what? (Not my most articulate moment, but by this time I’m scanning my groceries.)

Guy: You don’t want to get married? Tie a guy down now, divorce him later…or just ride the gravy train?

Me: Nope. No need. Got my own job…own money…own car. Soon my own business. Besides, that’s a bitchy thing to do.

Guy: *looks at me in an appraising sort of way* Huh. You a feminist? Fish, bicycle, and all that?

Me: No. Egalitarian. Not feminist, not MRA. More in-between…fight for everyone’s rights, not just one sex.

Guy: So you don’t hate men, you just don’t want to mooch?

Me: Pretty much. That, and I enjoy the freedom of being single.

By now both of us are done getting our groceries, and are walking out to the parking lot.

Guy: Well…congratulations. You are the only woman I’ve ever met who thinks this way. Try to spread it around, eh? Men need more partners, not overgrown kids.

Me: *smiling* Indeed. Have a good day, man.

So, what do you think? Did I meet a MGTOW in his native habitat, a man who went through a bad divorce, or just a dude with opinions who enjoys talking to random people?


100 thoughts on “I Think I Met A MGTOW Today

  1. Sounds to me like you met a pick up artist or disillusioned tradcon, not a MGTOW. He didn’t just ignore you. He engaged in conversation, told you things you wanted to hear and did so in a way that you remember. He was flirting with you. Anti-marriage doesn’t mean MGTOW. You meet many MGTOW every day. MGTOW are just invisible to most people and society in general. It’s the random nameless faceless sexless customers #12 #47 and #52 that are MGTOW and we are completely unremarkable to meet in person. A MGTOW’s reply to “A 5 Million dollar wedding” would have been more along the lines of “I like Twix bars”
    Note: With just the transcript of the conversation I’m missing out of 80% of the conversation that is body language and tone so my interpretation could be very wrong.

  2. Can’t rightly say. I just call it two folks who’ve got their heads screwed on right that happened to encounter each other.
    And mind you, that’s a rare thing.

  3. @GNL

    While I’m obviously unsure myself, I don’t think he was a pickup artist. I started the conversation, and prior to me doing so he was simply standing behind me looking very bored/disinterested. If he were a PUA, I think he’d have at least started a conversation. As for the flirting, I can be very slow to pick up on such things, but his voice and body language was that of a somewhat guarded person…his initial remark was also said in a way that it made me think he’d already assumed my stance. (But like you said, you’re only reading a transcript and it’s entirely possible he was a former tradcon.)

    It’s interesting that you say a MGTOW reply wouldn’t even be one pertaining to the topic at hand. I’ve read a number of forum posts by MGTOWs that state they are not quiet about their beliefs at all, and gladly attempt to give both men and women things to think about.

  4. Most MGTOW are not quite out their beliefs ONLINE. At any time [b] I [/b] choose I can just walk away from the keyboard. Trying to actually talk to random people in public is just simply asking for drama.

  5. No sign of MGTOW there. Clue is : “Guy: *looks at me oddly* What?”
    The NEXT thing HE said was just valve-bouncing while he assessed you. Yours wasn’t a pickup line, but he wasn’t to know that.

  6. I agree, for a MGTOW there are more interesting activities available than chatting random women up in grocery stores. Personally, I’d rather dedicate more of my time trying to understand the idea of ‘quasispecies‘ and what it means in practice. For example how certain antiviral medications might work by inducing ‘combinatorial explosion‘ to viral genetic material. Rather boring, as conversational topics go, right?
    Nevertheless, I wonder what do you think of this series of essays. What are the points that you disagree with? Are there any false assumptions?

  7. @Exfernal

    I wouldn’t say they are boring topics, but then I enjoy attending scientific lectures…My favorite was one on telomerase and the difficulties present in cloning that I went to in my last year of college, though in 12th grade our AP biology class attended a full day lecture on human physiological mutations that was both astounding and sobering. They are certainly *very* random things to talk about in the grocery store, especially as one cannot know what, if any, scientific knowledge the other customer has. Hence why “the weather” is such a popular topic… 😉

    Let me go read these essays and get back to you.

  8. A “red piller” for sure (situational awareness) and could very much be a MGHOW. I completely disagree with the above responses. MGTOW doesn’t mean a man not having conversations with women while standing in line, especially when something as a 5 million dollar wedding is mentioned out loud, I could very much respond to it. So yeah, could have been a MGHOW.

  9. @Axis

    That is what I thought. Like I mentioned above, he may not know of/subscribe to the actual MGTOW label, but it sounded like he was at least opinionated about the topic…which means he’s given it some thought, at least.

  10. It seems you definitely had a run in with some type of anti-feminist or woman critic It may not be a full on mgtow but I’m sure he’s into some of the ideology. You handled yourself well. That could have easily went sour. It’s interesting that he think you are the only woman he’s ever met that thinks the way you do. I’m sure if he opened his eyes, he’d see a lot more of them.
    I’m waiting for the day that happens to me. I’ve had some encounters with misogynists, mostly middle age men who have given up hope and adopted a bitter attitude about women over a failed marriage or two, but that’s slightly different.

  11. @BroadBlogs

    I don’t think it’s so much a bad attitude about women, as being cautious. There *are* a good number of women who give others a bad reputation, and if he got out of a horrible marriage/relationship I can absolutely understand how he’d be upset and bitter.

  12. @Ashley

    Well, considering *I’m* into some of the MGTOW ideology, I don’t think our conversation would have gone sour. 😉

    There’s always 2 sides to every story, and the Truth is usually somewhere in between. I am not an anti-feminist, but I’m also not a feminist…egalitarian is more my speed. As was pointed out to me recently, I’m an exceptionally non-judgemental person when it comes to topics like this.

  13. Don’t believe the fiction of MGTOW. As long as a man’s body produces
    12 times the testosterone of a woman’s body, no healthy man can
    “go his own way.”
    If men will KILL for primal sex. And women KILL for “love,” no man can go
    his own way.

  14. @Lon

    Except that many MGTOWs still have sexual relations with women, they just are extremely cautious and don’t allow themselves to get roped into relationships that are uber-committed/long term/one sided. M3 is a good example of this, I highly recommend his blog, even though he doesn’t post much anymore.


  15. Valve-bouncing: “out of sync”. I could go further and say “…fails to remain bedded, due to the combined effects of *resonance* and *inertia* ”
    Haaha! Go figure!

  16. Based on his using many of the popular buzzwords and phrases, I’d say you definitely met a MGTOW. But then, more and more men are discovering that relationships aren’t where it’s at anyway. Thus, meeting MGTOWs will become a more common experience.

  17. If we’d met for the first time, Tarn, we might well have had that conversation.
    It would be a dubious tactic to try on someone like that, to say no woman will want to marry him.
    Shaming tactics on someone who doesn’t care…optimistic, at best. Naive, perhaps? Funny, certainly.
    Good story though, Tarn. I liked it. Two sensible people talking about an insane way to spend a huge amount of money on an anachronistic ritual.

  18. reality is you wouldn’t notice most MGTOW’s-it’s about being under the radar mostly…
    ..maybe some would be slightly eccentric or introverted or odd…
    …I felt 10,000 lbs of pressure lifted from my back when I understood this path…

  19. The most noticeable thing about his early responses was that he didn’t care what your reply would be. Once he discovered that you were a reasoning, non-entitled, adult he was happy to talk to you.
    Very possibly an MGTOW IMHO FWIW. Certainly not a gynocentrist, that is for sure. Good man.

  20. SWAB said…
    “reality is you wouldn’t notice most MGTOW’s-it’s about being under the radar mostly…”
    Until they verbalise it to you never assume it.
    “…I felt 10,000 lbs of pressure lifted from my back when I understood this path…”
    More than twelve years ago I made a definitive decision that I would NOT be in a relationship with a woman again. A couple of months later I experienced a sudden and profound sense of liberation. What I had realised was that I had become capable of treating everybody in exactly the same way because I had become completely indifferent to women as women.

  21. @Spawny

    I think if we met in real life this way, we’d hit it off pretty well. Of course, there’s this absurdly huge pond in between us, but that’s beside the point. 😉

    One interesting thing I’ve noticed about this #womenagainstfeminism tag is that a number of manosphere bloggers don’t seem to really believe in it. Or maybe I should say they believe the women hold the views on the cards they are pictured with, but they only think this way because they want to get back into “men’s good graces”. There’s a lot of schedenfraude about women who are antifeminist (or even egalitarian like myself), where I don’t think there has to be.


  22. @Stoner

    Whoa, that article is pretty damn special. I’m glad that you are happy with your life as it is though…good on you for living as *you* want.

  23. @Da Poet

    Hey, great to hear from you again! It’s been a while, so I hope you’re well. I do believe I agree with you about this gentleman…While there obviously are women who don’t act in childish or entitled manners, it is good and rational to be cautious till one is found. (And that’s if you want a relationship.)

    Btw, as I know you enjoy poetry, you should check out my newest post “Pathways”. It’s a series of haikus that I think you’ll like.

  24. @Greg

    “What I had realized was that I had become capable of treating everybody in exactly the same way because I had become completely indifferent to women as women.”

    As it should be, good sir.

  25. Hello Sophia…I am doing ok… Shadow – my son’s dog – suddenly became ill and passed away two weeks later in the wee morning hours on July 21, 2014. I took the day off from work and helped my son and his friend who lives next door to bury Shadow in our yard not far from where our other dog’s – Tuffy who died in 2008 – final resting place. Now we are just trying to get used to Shadow not being there which hasn’t been easy. 😦 Other then that we are doing ok. So how have you been doing? 🙂

  26. @Stoner

    I’m sorry to hear that, but I understand. Some of the choices I’ve had to make in life were also more about pure survival than simply being happy. Life isn’t always fair, eh?

  27. it is what it is…
    strangely enough, it’s less painful to say, this sucks but that’s the reality than live in denial and have a nagging feeling in the back of your mind saying this sucks.

  28. @Da Poet

    I’m so sorry to hear about the passing of your companion. Last month my family had to euthanize our shetland sheepdog. She was only 12 years old, but had very bad bone cancer that just spread like wildfire…

  29. A minor quibble: It ought to be MGHOW (a man going HIS own way) both in my previous comment and in the title of this post.
    Hmmm, the oldest dogs lasted about 29 years… it’s a lot longer that I expected.

  30. @Exfernal

    True, it should be mghow technically. However, I think more people would search for mgtow than mghow…

    As for your previous comment, I will admit I was initially *very* cautious while reading since it deals with racial realism…the overwhelming majority of race realist articles I’ve previously read are shite-filled pseudo-scientific racist apologetic bs. Usually they are written by those who are supremely racist and clutch desperately for “scientific” reasons to be so, when truthfully none exist.

    However, I’ve read all 3 articles in the series and it appears the author is not arguing on behalf of racism, but instead talking about the fact that there are noticeable differences (at least physically) between the many ethnicities that the human race has. I personally don’t know anyone who would argue that such minor differences (skin color, height, bone structure, etc) are not real, just as I personally don’t know anyone who would argue that these aforementioned differences have anything to do with intelligence. It’s one thing to say something true like “black people have more melanin than white people” versus saying something grossly infactual like “increased melanin causes a lower IQ”. Arguments (if you even want to call them that) like this last one are on par with sexist notions of women being less intelligent than men due to smaller overall brain size. In other words, pure garbage.

  31. Height correlates with brain size, for example. Wouldn’t you expect Pygmies to be relatively disadvantaged intellectually to varying degree regardless of the quality of environment they were growing in?
    Do you remember the controversy around “hobbits” of Flores?

  32. I do remember that controversy…as I recall, it’s no longer a controversy. 😉

    Brain size I= intelligence, otherwise Blue Whales are all geniuses compared to us.

  33. @Tarn
    “I think if we met in real life this way, we’d hit it off pretty well.”
    I wouldn’t doubt it, which is kind of strange, as apart from shared chaque a son gout / laissex faire attitudes…we don’t have much in common. Maybe, fundamentally, we have very similar outlooks…we just took them in very different directions. All good by me. I never cared very much that everybody agrees with me*, just that if I’m not harming them, they leave me the hell alone.
    Whatever a herd instinct is, we don’t have it, in spades.
    (*if nobody did, I might consider that a reason to look into why. To check if I’d lost the plot)

  34. “One interesting thing I’ve noticed about this #womenagainstfeminism tag is that a number of manosphere bloggers don’t seem to really believe in it. Or maybe I should say they believe the women hold the views on the cards they are pictured with, but they only think this way because they want to get back into “men’s good graces”. There’s a lot of schedenfraude about women who are antifeminist (or even egalitarian like myself), where I don’t think there has to be.
    I have a mixture of feelings because
    1) I’ve always believed that NAWALT (starting from the position that I know women who aren’t) and so the concept that some women might be sick and tired of being told that :
    a) “they’re victimz of everything an’ it woz da menz wot did it, all of it. bastardz” (so hand over the cash, special treatment, quotas and AA)
    AND at the same time
    b) “men and women are exactly the same except plumbing and social constructs”
    …well it doesn’t seem very odd to me that some women might tire of the obvious bullshit. And feminism reeks of bullshit statistics that wither under any objective scrutiny. It’s why you never see one-on-one feminist on anti-feminist debate where the playing field is forced to be even. This clip was close, watch Naomi’s body language by the end, could she be looking like she’s fleeing the interaction any more without getting out of her seat? She had nothing to counter Karen Straughn’s knowledge…run away! I’d put them both into a cage match and I know who’d be coming out as victrix.

    2) I have been a fan of GirlWritesWhat / Karen Straughan since I saw her first video. There are woman that are in the forefront of the battle (Karen says herself that first and foremost she is an anti-feminist).
    3) I’ve seen you being very even handed on this blog when misandric accusations were ejaculated by commenters. I don’t need or want favouritism…I would be absolutely happy with equality of opportunity in society. No more quotas for the good jobs while ignoring the bad and dangerous jobs. I do believe in spectra of characteristics between the sexes (overlapping spectra), some important ones should be kept in mind when policy is being made. And sometimes real world consequences of sexual dimorphism might be unfair at the individual level – sorry about that. If it helps my glorious career as a basketball player was stunted by my height of 3’6″. My career as a musician foiled by my lack of ability to carry a tune.
    This clip shows where the obsession with oppression and equality can go when reality is abandoned (enjoy, it’s funny, but it’s recognisable as an attitude about us)

    4) I do think that there are women that are reacting purely to the growing number of men taking the red-pill. Look at any MSM comment thread now and you’ll find men dissenting from the gynocentric line of any such article. Words are easy, we need to see action in rolling back family court, gaoling false accusers (using them to get child custody, partner imprisoned, or just consequence (for them) free drama).
    TL;DR (but watch the Monty Python clip anyway) #womenagainstfeminism looks like a welcome step towards an adult society that addresses reality while moving toward a balanced society…but that doesn’t mean every woman signing up for it has the absolute purest of intentions and a complete disregard for her own best interests (women are human too).
    Just for fun

  35. In certain areas they might be regarded as ‘geniuses’. Long range migrations without many landmarks to take the bearings from, for example. It’s difficult to act smart without appropriate means of expression. We humans are quite adept at tool manipulation, so it’s quite easy to notice. Don’t diss cetaceans. Perhaps it’s us being too dumb to notice their smarts. 😉

  36. Lol, this is very true…have you read “So long, and thanks for all the fish” by Douglas Addams?

    I was simply pointing out that brain size doesn’t automatically equate to intellect. For example, I’ve met a decent number of midgets and dwarves and they were all of normal intelligence, if not above average.

  37. Isn’t there some theory saying that cetacean brains are larger because they never sleep (they would drown). Some decades ago they thought that there,was some sort of tag game between the hemispheres as to which was asleep and which awake.

  38. Yes, I have. The whole “trilogy in five parts” translated into my native language, in my late teens. I remember even more clearly “Songs of Earth and Power” by Greg Bear, the first Anglophone book I have read in its original language. Funny thing, I have read first ten or so volumes of “Xanth” around the same time, yet I remember almost nothing now. Word games don’t translate well, you know.
    And you?

  39. A congenitally disadvantaged dwarf or midget is not proportionally shaped, like someone from an isolated genetically, short ethnicity. The braincase would remain at the same volume regardless of being treated with HGH or not.

  40. I think I should replace “like” with “unlike” in the comment about midgets. English users prefer avoiding double negatives, don’t they? It makes harder getting my point across, sometimes.

  41. @Exfernal

    Yes, your previous comment makes a lot more sense now. Using a double negative in English typically makes what you are saying positive.

    Hmm. Have you heard of the “Starchild” skull?

  42. @Spawny

    I love Christmas crackers! We have a decent number of British people in my store’s area, so we carry lots of UK snacks and such during the holiday seasons.

    I believe you’re thinking of sharks though, not whales and dolphins. From what I learned in my Marine Biology course in college, sea mammals will just sleep with their heads at the surface of the water so they don’t have to wake up every X minutes.

  43. @Tarn
    I heard it about dolphins…but what I heard might well have been proved wrong subsequently. We’re going back 30+ years here and it wasn’t something of great interest, just a ‘fact’ from a documentary that stuck. I have an odd memory like that.

  44. “I love Christmas crackers!”
    I never realised that they were just an Imperial thing rather than a Colonial one too… 😉
    What Imperial delicacies have you sampled?
    Spotted Dick (mmmmm just add a dash of custard, perfect! Wintertime treat that fills a hole)
    Toad in the Hole (better name than yours)
    Fisherman’s Friend (found these in Thailand)
    Proper mature Cheddar (nothing like the McPlastic stuff)
    Eton Mess (great for the Summer, really recommend this. Yummy)

  45. “Ah…like the “fact” I was taught in Catholic school about men having 1 less rib than women?”
    Is that not true? I thought women had one more floating rib that men…why that would be…no idea. Googling now

  46. Re: Foods

    I’ve made a vegetarian version of Toad in the Hole, and I had Spotted Dick via a neighbor when I was younger. Whenever I can, I order cheeses from your side of the pond. I’m the only person in my family to own those little egg cups for really softly boiled eggs…yum! I like Tayto chips (crisps?) and drink tea like it’s water…again, only person in my family who hates coffee but loves tea. We carry mince pies during the holidays, and real Cadbury and Emerald chocolates. They are sooo superior to the ones given to us Americans. Glad I have a UK wholesaler to get the good stuff from. 🙂

    Re: rib bones
    It was based on the myth of the Christian God taking a rib from Adam to make Eve. Not true though…men and women have the same number of ribs.

  47. No problem. I also prefer learning I’m wrong, since it keeps me from inadvertently spreading misinformation. Course…I like being right first of all, but surprisingly this doesn’t always happen. 😉

  48. No, today is the first time I saw it mentioned. Looks like obvious tabloid fodder to me. It was pretty much confirmed to be a case of hydrocephalus, wasn’t it?
    What is your preferred explanation, if you don’t mind?

  49. Apparently the career in public administration is not very demanding intellectually, if this story is true. I cannot help laughing. Excuse me for being unusually horrendous today.

  50. “Tayto chips (crisps?)”
    Imperial Fish & Chips would be Colonial Battered Fish & French Fries.
    Crisps are the flat po-tay-to slices deep fried. Cheese and Onion, Salt and Vinegar, Prawn Cocktail etc.
    I’m a coffee drinker.
    I taught some French people the difference between plastic McCheese and real Extra Mature Cheddar…they were shocked. They assumed that the cheese in Royale with cheese wasn’t ‘the real thing’.
    Have you tried Marmite? (suitable for vegetabletarians)
    Their advertising says (very accurately) that you either love it or hate it.
    I think it should be banned under the Geneva Conventions covering chemical weapons & warfare, personally. But my mum loves it.

  51. @Cheese and onion crisps are good…but Roasted Chicken is my favorite. It’s vegetarian, can you believe it?

    Yuck, coffee. Smells good…tastes bitter.

    Extra Mature Cheddar, love it.

    Marmite tastes 100% exactly like goat vitamins. I know, because when I worked at the wildlife shelter we had baby deer/fawns whose mothers were hit by cars. They had to be bottle fed goat milk mixed with molasses and vitamins…which got smeared on my thumb and I thoughtlessly licked it off. Ewww. Two years ago a customer let me try some of his special order of Marmite. I tell you now, this company is feeding you goat vitamins.

  52. “Brain size I= intelligence, otherwise Blue Whales are all geniuses compared to us.”
    It may well be true, for they don’t waste their time attempting to communicate with us.

  53. @Tarnished
    “So long, and thanks for all the fish”
    It would serve mankind right if the dolphins did leave us such a parting shot.

  54. “Yuck, coffee. Smells good…tastes bitter.”
    Now, now! There are some very good coffees which aren’t all that bitter and make a great iced drink. I tend to prefer the stronger brews (which can be bitter), or I’d recommend one. I will should I run across one you might like.

  55. “Course…I like being right first of all, but surprisingly this doesn’t always happen.”

    That was my first time being non-reality-compliant/accuracy-impaired/(‘wrong’)…honest

  56. For your entertainment (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite )

    2012–13 New Zealand Marmite shortage
    A jar of New Zealand Marmite following its return to sale after “Marmageddon”

    In November 2011, Sanitarium shut down the sole production line of New Zealand Marmite at its Christchurch factory after a cooling tower at the factory was deemed unsafe, having cracked in the 22 February 2011 Christchurch earthquake and its aftershocks. On 19 March 2012, the company announced that its own stocks of Marmite had run out and the production line was not expected to be running again until July. Some supermarkets reported at the time they had already run out of stock, and there was only a few weeks of stock left in their distribution centres, leading to the dubbing of Marmite as “black gold” and the crisis as “Marmageddon”.

    I laughed, anyway.

  57. He was not a PUA. Also I like how you classify the MGTOW as the bitter divorcee in your last paragraph. I am not a MGTOW yet the women he describes are the typical. I suspect even if you married and then got bored you might even pull some of this stuff he stated. I have men may a woman who are all for equality and not being a bitch and then when it suited them they went straight for cash and prizes. For many women their principles and morality is subject to whatever emotions they are feeling.

  58. @monkeywerks

    I was never of the opinion that he was a PUA. That was one of my commenter’s thoughts.

    I reread what I wrote…nowhere do I try to classify him as a “bitter” divorcee. I did wonder if he had gone through a bad divorce, but that was simply a possibility in addition to the other two potentials (which you did not comment on). If you read other parts of my blog, you’ll see that I usually take the side of the MGTOW philosophy, and am of the belief that marriage is not good for men at the moment. If I were the sex I wish I’d been born as, I’d almost certainly be a MGTOW myself.

    As it is, I’m currently 30 years old and still have no desire for marriage, which I also state in numerous posts. Why should I give up my freedom? I see no reason to, nor do I see any reason for most cis men to unless they are one of the type who wants a family (even then, marriage isn’t required).

    I’m going to be honest and say I don’t appreciate your imaginings about what I would personally do in a marriage or divorce, but neither can I fault you for holding such beliefs. I’ll simply recommend you take the time to read more of my posts under the “MGTOW” and “Singlehood” categories to discover what I’m truly about before trying to put together any more unknowledgeable conclusions in regards to my person.

  59. I meant to follow up that I did not wish to come across to harshly, and not I did not know that you have sexual identity issues. Your sex life seemed pretty normal from what I did read and from what I have seen in my own observations that is kinda rare for people with certain issues.

    I will check your blog out. You seem to have some interesting works that deserve reading. My point was that many times (maybe not you specifically) women will bend their morality to suit whatever they want to do, such as cheat or in the case of a divorce take all that they can from their husbands.

    Maybe your feeling like a man in a womans body gives you a unique perspective that is not shared by the large majority of women. I would definitely like to discuss that with you because a former lover of mine may have been similar to you in a way. She was very bi (good for me) and we had the best sex ever, but it may explain some of the underlying issues that caused the relationship to fail.

  60. That is fine. Sometimes I get hecklers who leave a single comment then never return…I apologize for thinking you might’ve been one of them.

    I’m unsure if you’d call my sex life normal. As I said before, I’m 30 but have only had 1 partner in my life…a monogamous 7+ year FwB arrangement with a man who is cis but honestly portrays many more feminine stereotypes than I ever have. It’s an odd relationship, but hey…it works so why ruin a good thing? Neither of us wants marriage or kids, he got a vasectomy before I met him, we are both very open to trying new sex acts and we both *really* enjoy sex in general.

    My issues aren’t so much with my gender dysphoria, as I’ve basically come to terms with it. The sexual and emotional abuse my stepfather decided to visit on me (see my “Abuse” category) was far more damaging than merely feeling perpetually ‘incorrect’. The fact that I didn’t have sex till I was 22 due to abject fear probably did not help matters. I’m not telling you this to incite pity…just giving you a heads up on what you might read.

    In regards to your previous lover, I am also bi (though I’ve only ever kissed women, never met one I felt I could trust enough to have sex with). If you wish to compare notes about such topics, I’d be more than happy to.

  61. I would love to start a dialogue and I appreciate the extra info you gave. I have a blog also and I don’t hide what I am about or my overall mission. That said I am sometimes overly direct and often un PC. However I do not do this for shock value or the desire to just randomly piss people off. I just found that being open and direct is better than hiding behind a wall of PC psycho-babble.

    Have you ever tried sex with a normal man? With my bi lover her and I had the deep trust to discuss and be willing to satisfy each others desires without judgment. None of her previous lovers could handle that she liked other women, alot. She was with me after my divorce and let me get alot of things out of my system in a safe environment. They had no idea what they were missing is all I am going to say.

    The point is that there are normal men out there that may be worth being open to meeting. A long term FWB situation is a normally a dysfunctional relationship. No one can have intimate contact like that and not develop feelings.

    Again, I need to read more of your blog before I comment further.

  62. Lol, I think my lover would probably be miffed that you refer to him as abnormal. Perhaps I stressed his feminine qualities too much…I don’t mean he also has gender dysphoria. He is a man in a male body, and has always been thus. It’s just that I’m an INTJ personality and he’s an ENFP personality. I’m level headed and not very emotional. He tends to get very emotional about just about everything. I’m introverted, he’s extroverted. I have an internal locus of self, he has a need for external validation. I like to sit and meditate in the woods, and absolutely need my solitude from time to time. He is a “social butterfly” and hates being alone for more than a few hours. I withdraw and get very quiet when I’m upset, he has no problem letting others know how he feels.

    Like I said, our stereotypes are reversed.

    Sorry if I made it sound as though we do not have feelings for each other. I assure you this is not the case…He and I have both said “I love you” in and out of the bedroom. We just don’t need to have any more commitment than what we currently do. FwB may not be the most accurate label, but it’s the closest I know of.

    I look forward to hearing from you more. Please, peruse at your leisure and let me know if you’ve any more questions.

  63. It just sounds like you 2 are a bit opposite and accept each other without judgment. Sometime man and women like to play the “I just dont want to commit” card and yet it seems that they are in fact in a committed relationship. I’ve done it enough times myself, lol.

    I’m not a normal relativist. Although men and women may have little quirks to them I do not buy into all the various labels and such. He is man who is metrosexual but he is still a man who likes only women, from the little I have gathered.

    I am not overly judgmental about gays in general or any other proclivity.

    So when I use the term its with this in mind.

  64. Absolutely. In the entirety of our relationship, we’ve had a single fight that was really just the result of a miscommunication. We forgave each other that same afternoon and I initiated incredibly hot makeup sex…So it goes. Life is too precious to take so seriously, and most things I hear couples or friends fighting about are really not that important (in my opinion).

    I only say we aren’t in a committed relationship because it is technically open. I would not mind if he had sex with a new partner every now and then, and he wants me to expand my experiences with other partners (though I’m happy being monogamous). Again, it is what it is.

  65. Gonna go with a real MGTOW guy (re: meeting you had in checkout line).

    Everyone can bemoan what they think MGTOW means. But there is no cookie cutter template for such to shoe horn the label MGTOW.

    MGTOW is like being single pilot PIC (pilot in command) .. you ain’t got nobody to blame or count on.

    Again .. I mentioned before .. you are not MGTOW if your married. You may be red pill .. but you have a first officer (i.e. a wife) and probably passengers (aka the chillin) so by my definition you may or may not be in charge (PIC).

    Only a single fighter / bomber pilot can be truly GTOW.

    At 45 years old I watched the second wave of feminists ruin what I came to understand as a traditional family. It ain’t coming back. I grew up with the ever present comments of .. there has to be something wrong with me by women, men and family. As you can tell .. it didn’t bother me one bit. I was armed early with the truth and acted accordingly.

    Now they all think I’m smart. Well except th wimminz ;@P

  66. That’s true. On one hand, if a man’s Way involves having a family then he’s doing exactly what he wants. On the other, he’s not going his *own* way if he’s got other people to be responsible for and partnered with.

    The more I think about it, I’m tempted to believe MGTOWs are single and if they get married they are Red Pill men. Then again, it’s not up to me to define MGTOW and a number of guys on various forums (and in Part 2 of my MGTOW Survey Results) showed that a good portion believe MGTOWs can be married.

  67. That was definitely a MGTOW. I’m one and I can tell you, he was probably a new MGTOW. New MGTOW’s often are still dealing with that bitter “red pill” before they actualize the tremendous benefits such as money, time, and trips to asia where you are treated like a Godman. If he were a seasoned MGTOW like myself, he wouldn’t have been emotionally invested with the comment against marriage. I make those comments all the time but I have no emotional investment in the lives of others any more.

  68. “I make those comments all the time but I have no emotional investment in the lives of others any more.”

    I agree with this. There are very few things that will raise my ire with anyone anymore.

    You say some helpful things then let ’em do what they’re going to do without further comment.

    Too many dumb people, or angry people out there that can’t be reasoned with because they don’t want to be reasoned with.

    What I still hate seeing is some numb-nut telling some one just looking for advice, to go do something dumb (like man up and marry a ho).


  69. You should have responded, “Ditto,” on his last comment. Ask every woman you know who’s married or has been married. The man is the overgrown kid! You will be picking up/cleaning up after him the ENTIRE relationship. Constantly having to remind him of things, appointments, etc. Making sure he gets up for work on time…. please….

  70. Well it is one of those things, a slitghty odler post but interesting nonetheless, for some reason I am thinking there might be some micro movement of Married MGTOWS… Disenfranchised and not having any relations for years with the partner, just together in the eyes of the law and not much more.

    Freedom seems like a mirage out in the desert but the day it comes there would never be any new commitment to the other gender (F/B’s at best if even that).

    Once you take away the Primal Need as one of the earlier comments noted, there is precious little left for them to influence you with,

  71. I’m a MGTOW. Just because you are a MGTOW does not mean you do not interact with women in society. There are MGTOW that do avoid all interaction with all women; however, the majority still date, have sex, and do most things non-MGTOW men do. The main thing MGTOW follow is to not have children or get married. Many MGTOW I know will speak their minds on these topics, they just won’t say they’re MGTOW. After all MGTOW is a lifestyle, not a label. You may be able to spot one but most of the crap out there about them not coming from a MGTOW source is from people or groups who are insecure about a man taking charge of his own life. Most MGTOW are successful, take care of themselves, I can’t speak for all, but I’m is very social.

  72. Very true!
    Let me ask you though; What do you think of AVfM attempting to change the definition of MGTOW so that it includes marriage? I personally believe it shows an alliance to traditionalism, which is also harmful to men.

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