Calling All Married MGTOWs

Hi everyone. Hope the weekend is treating you all well. Today we are going to look at an email I received a few weeks ago, from a male reader I’ll call “M”. I told him I’d do his request post after I finished the two other MGTOW Results ones, but as I’ve not had the opportunity to complete them to my liking yet, I’m not going to force him to wait any longer.

M writes;

My name is M and I’m writing you today because I have read several of your blogs about Men and I think your survey was really insightful. I really admire your take on Men and the whole MGTOW movement and that’s why I wanted to pose this question to you because I think your blog gets great feedback from many intelligent readers. I think it would be really hard to get genuine answers on any other forum because of trolls and I think you keep your forum well regulated. I could be wrong about other forums but I think posing my question with you could be a great place to start.

I recently read a comment on your post about married MGTOWs and how they could live a happy life being married while still understanding the MGTOW philosophy. I know this might get some push back but I wanted to see if you could maybe pose a question, on your forum, to where a compiled list of 10 in depth questions could be formulated from your readers that could be asked to NAWALT women that are in some men’s life. I know some men will say that no matter what questions you ask most women will lie, but I feel like if the questions are formulated in a certain way maybe a rating system or gauge as you will can also be made to actually see where a women’s real intentions lie. This maybe a far-fetched idea but I feel that MGTOWs deep down really do want a long term relationship with a good woman but find its less stress to not weed through all the toxic women in today’s society in order to find that one “needle in the haystack”.

I really appreciate you taking out the time to read this and thank you for everything that you are doing.

So guys, how about it, married MGTOWs…can you comment and help a brother with this? (I think any MGTOWs who have been or are currently in LTRs could comment as well.)

What traits do you find attractive in your wives/girlfriends? Were there any particular questions you asked on your first dates or early in the relationship that really made you think she was a good catch? When did you realize she was the one you were willing to settle down with?

These are just some startup questions, obviously. M needs to hear from those who are living the life he wants, not me. I do have some potential bits of advice, but mine can wait till later. I’d also like to take this opportunity to thank M for his great email, and hope he gets the information he desires.

As always, my comments policy is in effect, but I believe the overwhelming majority of my commenters are wonderfully polite anyway. Have at it, guys!


176 thoughts on “Calling All Married MGTOWs

  1. I think we are all actual serial monogamists, and that the concept of an eternally satisfying relationship is mostly wishful thinking. Considering this and that marriage is not a rational choice for a man wanting to maintain control of his finances throughout his life, I will not be getting married again.

    I do believe in long term relationships and commitment, but making it legally binding imbues the whole union with tragic consequences for males, should it dissolve.

    And in terms of looking for the ONE, it’s just too tiring, time consuming, and cost prohibitive for me right now. If I had more gas money i might consider searching harder. Right now Im just working on my loser game. this mostly consists of throwing stuff on the wall and see if it sticks.

    “hey I live with my parents and am unemployed, but do you wanna bang?” It actually works once in a while.

    of course you could say it’s cynical to not believe in finding the one, finding a soul mate etc, and it just may well be. but you could also say that giving up hope it’s kind of relaxing and liberating in it’s own way.

    And I was married for 12 years, and have worked great jobs at fortune 500 companies, and wasn’t happy for one second the whole time.

    I think im just feral for life. You will find me outside howling at the moon and masturbating and eating shrooms. Anyone wanna join me?

    Sexy, I know.

  2. I think there are some good people out there, but you have to function at
    your optimum spiritual level.
    People from differing esoteric levels have nothing to offer one another.
    The man that has the most to offer a woman, or vise versa is the man who
    cannot be manulipated by a women’s games. He can “take” or “leave” the
    woman because he is so complete and self assured he doesn’t need the
    woman. That might seem “cold,” but that is exactly the level of clear sighted
    spiritual health a person needs.
    BTW, Tarnished, I promise this is the LAST request:
    If you haven’t already done so, please watch the film “Jesus Christ Superstar”
    (1973) I think a Wiccan would be happy with that film. Also please Google
    the song “Kiss Me,” by Sixpence None The Richer (1997) The song was
    written by a “Born Again” Christian group, but to me, it is more like a Wiccan
    Song. I would LOVE to have a girl like the one singing that song, but alas
    it is not to be.

  3. @PL

    Well, I’m good at howling and I like the moon…and masturbation is always fun. Are the shrooms optional? 😉

    You know, a lot of my customers and friends agree with your sentiment about having a job you enjoy being better than a job that makes you wealthy. I keep telling my mom that when she complains I don’t have a “real” job (aka one that will make me rich), lol.

    I do not see why living with ones parents and being unemployed would make you less suitable for sex. Times are tough all around, that shouldn’t have any effect on your actual character.

  4. @Lon

    Hey, I love that song! I even have it on my phone right now. And two of my friends from high school were in theatre, so I’ve already seen them in JC Superstar 3 or 4 times. I’ll even own up to having the soundtrack nestled next to my Weird Al CDs. 🙂

    I don’t think it is cold to admit you are confident and self assured to the point you do not “need” your partner. That’s basically how my lover and I are…we aren’t together because we require each other for financial stability, resources, housing arrangements, transportation, or even sex if it came down to it. We are together because we are very good friends and we care for one another on many levels.

  5. I am a bit unclear as to what is being asked. 10 questions to ask a woman to determine if she is NAWALT or 10 questions to ask a NAWALT to decided if I want to date her?

    If M is looking to determine is a woman is a NAWALT, actual literal questions posed to her directly are the wrong way to go. Most women know the “correct” answers to any questions we could come up with. Determining NAWALTS from every other woman out there is a “Market for Lemons” issue.

    If you really must bother looking, look at ACTIONS, not words. Is she collecting child support? In what ways does she support traditional gender roles for men? Does she have a history of treating men like disposable utilities? Does she expect benevolent sexism for her? and other questions like this.

  6. What traits do you find attractive in your wives/girlfriends?

    Niceness. Cooperation. Openness, Willing for sex. Lack of disdain over topics she wasn’t into, and being willing to discuss them without judgement. NO DESIRE TO CONTROL ME AND RUN MY LIFE!!!

    Were there any particular questions you asked on your first dates or early in the relationship that really made you think she was a good catch?

    No, but there should have been. I wasn’t experienced enough to know better.

    When did you realize she was the one you were willing to settle down with?

    A better answer is when I realized I was making a big mistake,and went through with it anyway. I still remember the day, date, and time when I knew I had no say in my relationship. I knew I needed to walk, but I was too emotionally needy to do what I needed to do.

    I’ve paid dearly ever since.

    Hope this helps.

  7. Thanks for your input, Blurkel. I’m sure it’ll be helpful to those who are trying to decide exactly what they desire from their relationships…if they decide to have one, that is.

    Yup. Definitely a big factor in my own decision to have a FwB relationship rather than anything with more commitment. Freedom is key!

    “…but I was too emotionally needy to do what I needed to do.”
    See what Lon and I said above.

  8. I don’t know what the best questions might be. I started asking people questions on the sexual aspects of marriage, but that little project derailed itself. One man’s answers, I later discovered, proved to be unreliable at best.

    I know a great old couple. When we are all here in my home country, we have Sunday mornings breakfasts together. They have been happily married for 50+ years. Of course I have observed them, wondering what is their secret to such marital harmony?

    When it comes to the woman, I can say it starts with a kind heart: a genuinely, openly, manifestly, kind heart.

    So what question can we ask to detect such a heart?

  9. … I mean, the kind of heart that is so set in its kindness, it reflects itself in everything she does and says, and is too ingrained for her to change even if she tried. When it comes to her sex life? Well, she’s going to be kind there too.

  10. I am probably going to go back to the whole “actions over words” thing again.

    Does the person of your affections think men should be constrained to gender roles while women are not?

    Does she ever offer to pay in part (or full) for your dates?

    What reaction does she have to men who are crying/showing “weakness”?

    Does she enjoy and initiate sex, and is open to trying new (nonpainful) positions?

    Does she offer to help you with household projects, or think you should do them by yourself?

    Does she have friends/hobbies of her own that she enjoys, or will she attempt to budge in on yours when she’s bored?

    Is she controlling?

    Does she handle money and budgeting well, or have massive amounts of debt?

    Is she self-sufficient, or looking for a man to “save” her?

    These are some of the things I would personally be on the lookout for…

  11. Yes, “actions”:

    How does she look at you – when you blunder, does her face soften with understanding?
    (blundering comes naturally to me, but less imperfect men could deliberately blunder for this test)
    Another big one is: How and where does she touch you? This is a huge one. I’ll have to think about it for a bit.

  12. Absolutely! I’m like that…or at least it seems I am…because I’ve had numerous people tell me over the course of my life that I’m “like a housewife out of a 50s sitcom” or “unrealistically kind”. Supposedly it’s a bit off-putting to some, but I’m unsure why.

  13. “How and where does she touch you”

    I was walking down a busy street in Sydney the other day. Two young women approached.
    Woman 1: “Hey mate, have you got a girlfriend? Where do you live!”
    Woman 2: “Oh Sar-ah! Anyway mate, where DO you live?”
    As I walk past, “Sarah” grabs my ass as if she owns it.

    NAWALT worth knowing? No, no, no!
    Not even one night stand!

    The issue of “good touch” remains.
    However, I’m not sure if it’s very relevant here.

    Tarnished “unrealistically kind”?

  14. Geezus…if your sexes had been reversed, that would’ve been sexual harassment right there. (It *was* anyway, but you know what I mean.) Yeah, definitely not a woman worth knowing. If you’ve that little respect for a stranger’s personal space, you’re a bit of a louse…man or woman alike.

    I was told it was “unrealistically” because (supposedly) nobody thinks of other people to that extent. For example, my coworker called me thus because I’d lent a regular customer $850 to pay his rent when he’d been unexpectedly laid off. He *did* pay it back over the course of 3 months when he got a job though, and it wasn’t money I needed at that moment.

  15. Okay, that’s a question for a NAWALT right there! 😉
    “Excuse me ma’am, Would you lend me $850 to pay my rent – I’ve been unexpectedly laid off”!

  16. … is she says Yes to that one, get down on bended knee and propose to her on the spot! (only to discover she’s already married)

  17. Lol.
    Well, I’m not married but he had been a regular customer for 6 years at that point and he’s a nice guy. I knew he’d pay me back eventually. *shrug*

  18. I wonder if married or LTR or older men realize how important their comments are to some of us single MGTOW?

    I always pay close attention to what blurkel says, for example.

  19. I look up a bit and I see blurkel and others have commented already. My previous comment was just me going off half-cock again.

    FWIW, tarn, I would have lent him the money too. I wouldn’t have hesitated, actually.

  20. I’m sure Blurkel doesn’t mind. I really do hope that all the MGTOWs who comment here, whether in a relationship or no, understand just how much this sense of “community” means to some people. MGTOW may not necessarily be a movement in the strictest of terms since it’s an individual choice…but it’s nice to see so many men comfortable sharing their experiences and understanding/acknowledging that their lives have so much inherent worth outside of female validations. Warms my heart, even if I’m not a part of it. ❤

    See, that's why I like commenters like yourself, Cill. You're good people. The world needs more of us.

  21. Yes, @populistlibertine, tarn really is that nice!

    I stand by this: the common denominator is a kind heart. If she has that quality, all other positive qualities will follow.
    More indications of kind heart:
    Does she speak fondly of her friends?
    Watch her face, listen to the tone of her voice. A kind woman’s face and voice will “soften” as she speaks of her friends.

    I can detect it easily, because by nature, I respond more to a woman’s character than I do to her appearance.

  22. @blurkel.

    Maybe I missed it b, but are you still in that relationship you knew you should have gotten out of?

    Like I said, I was married for 12+ years, with the woman for around 19. it’s never too late to make the jump for freedom and happiness.

  23. blurkel is still married (see? I wasn’t exaggerating when I said I take notice of his comments! 😉 )
    (but let me not take the words out of his mouth)

    You and him and all who commented at the top, are or have been married/LTR, or are older men (say older than 35). *All* those comments are much-valued!

  24. thanks cill. yeah. im 43 and counting. if I could go back and do things differently I totally would.

    My biggest piece of advice would be to find someone on the same page as you about socioeconomic status and finances. is the big house and belonging to the right social circles important to her? Is it important to you? we are actually still friends now, and she has remarried someone who has her same need for nice things and big homes.

    Also, nothing is as good or as bad as it seems. Acceptance is key. Plus this poem from R. Kipling contains many nuggets of timeless wisdom.

    (‘Brother Square-Toes’—Rewards and Fairies)

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

    If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
    If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
    And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

  25. That’s very good advice! Thanks mate. Make sure we’re on the same page for material expectations – that’s exactly the sort of thing I wouldn’t have found out about her unless someone had told me.

  26. It’s a good topic to discuss, especially if you’re considering making the relationship a serious one. Just be aware that this is a fairly individual preference…for example, my sisters and I grew up together for the most part, but they desire physical gifts from their significant others while I desire memories. Neither is necessarily better than the other, but they are two very different mindsets!

  27. @populist libertine

    Yes, PL, I am still in the same relationship. I remain because it keeps me in touch with my kids and grandkids. It also keeps their mother from going over the edge and making their lives miserable. we’ve already been down that road, so I know what would happen.

    Back when Poppy Bush decided to wage war on Iraq (literally!), I was asked to move out. I was gone three weeks before I heard anything from anyone I’d left behind. My daughter finally called me at work and asked me to call her mother. That led to a dinner with the kids, and I was asked to return. The kids didn’t like care-taking their mother and her whacked emotional distress over learning just how much she’d have to deal with if I wasn’t in the picture any more. My mistake was agreeing to do so, for I was about to get my own place and separate my income from the rest of the joint accounts. But while I rescued my relationship with my kids, it didn’t deliver any improvements in my marriage. I resorted to going along to get along as much as possible, for I no longer felt there was anything to save that was worth the effort.

    It remains so to this day. It’s something like Berlin during the Cold War, or the Korean DMZ to this day. Tense, but static. Few surprises. No major upheavals or battles. Not a great way to live, but the best I can do for now.

  28. I ran across an interesting comment while browsing some of my usual sites. The article it comes from is difficult to read at times due to misspellings and grammatical and conceptual errors, and the ignorant and off-base anti-feminist rants make my head hurt, but this guy came up with an interesting thought.

    “As more men go MGTOW then the ratio of women to men changes the fewer and fewer men in the dating market are targeted in increasing ways by predatory women. While there are good women that are single and would like a relationship, they are indistinguishable for the predatory women. Not wanting to be seen as predatory the good women just drop out of the dating market much the same way that MGTOW are. This then lead to a greater prevalence of predatory women in the market reinforcing the perception that all women are like that. This leads to more MGTOW that leads men remaining in the market to be bigger targets. This leads to a greater perception of predatory women that leads to more women dropping out. This leads to a greater prevalence of predatory women and more men MGTOW.”

    I can see where he got this thought, considering my observations over the years. I offer it to see what you all think.

  29. @Blurkel

    We think alike, my friend. When GNL (who is often a commenter here) penned this, I reblogged it. That was a while ago though, so I’m glad you brought it to light again.

  30. In using the word “her”, I meant “women” rather than “woman”. I should have made this clearer. However… included among those women are some who appear to tick the boxes, so I sure am interested in all the foregoing comments.

    I have a large extended family on both sides. With only two exceptions, all my rellies who married have stayed married. I reckon they all jumped into marriage without any qualms. Two of them got it wrong; the rest got it right. While kindness is the factor my married rellies have in common, they are hardly typical of the world out there.

    My own case is atypical also. I don’t know any other man who is attracted by a woman’s character as much as I am. My mates are attracted overwhelmingly by her looks. And yet it is me, not my mates, to whom nature has given an alpha face and build. I’m tall enough to be conspicuous, I smile at people without thinking, and they say I have a wicked smile (“bad boy”). Aggressive “western” women fondle me for this reason: they expect me to have the mind of an “alpha”, which I most certainly do not.

    I’m similar to Tarnished in a way, but it’s almost an insult to compare us. With greatly differing degrees of consequence, we both have bodies not normally found with our minds.

    The comments I read here are more pertinent to my situation than most comments I read elsewhere.

  31. Oh Cill, I’d be glad to be included in comparison to you. (I’m a weirdo, honestly, so if anything you’d be getting the short stick. 😉 ) My smile gets me in trouble as well…I’ve a “crooked” one that appears far too easily, makes me look more mischievous than I really am.

    I’ve said this before, but I’m quite pleased with the comments here. My goal in starting this blog was to create an open environment for discussion and to help people connect with/give support to each other without having to deal with trolls. It’s taken a while but I do believe we are just about there.

  32. ” I do believe we are just about there.”

    If your standards of compliance are broad enough to give me as pass, YOU. ARE. THERE.

  33. Thanks for the vote of confidence, lol.

    *sigh* Sadly, yes. When I first started blogging I was besieged by trolls…most of them actively misogynistic or anti-Pagan. We’re talking about comments like “I hope you die from ovarian cancer, stupid c**t” or “Spreading lies about your disgusting excuse for a religion will only serve to heat your hellfires”. Just the stupidest crap you can imagine. It’s why I have kept my blog on moderation ever since. Hasn’t been bad lately, though there’s always a few comments every month I won’t subject you guys to.

    Such is the cost of putting ones thoughts out into the aether. Oh well.

  34. I had no idea. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Thank you for weeding out the crap for us. Now of course I have more questions. When you get sick of them, kick me to the kerb and I won’t be hurt (I am used to it, my family are long since tired of all my questions).

    “I was besieged by trolls…most of them actively misogynistic or anti-Pagan”.
    I can imagine the anti-Pagan, but by “misogynistic” do you not mean “misandrous”? Or did your tone of your site initially not include MGTOW?

  35. Meh. I can be pretty self-sardonic IRL, but I just meant that I’m an odd duck.

    I sing little snippets of songs when I do my ordering for the week.
    I can’t dance, so I do this combination cabbage patch/shuffle thing that probably makes me look spastic but is fun to do.
    I work quotes from Mel Brooks and Tim Burton movies into daily conversation.
    My favorite “superhero” is Deadpool.
    My arms are covered in tiny scars from the claws of raccoons, owls, hawks, foxes, skunks, and opossums I used to raise.
    I’ll sometimes act out Monty Python scenes when grocery shopping because I get bored too easily and I like shaking people up from their mundane lives.
    I have the reflexes of a dead cat, so I take a bow anytime I miraculously catch objects tossed to me.

    And…I eat tofu. And *enjoy* it.

  36. My mother tells me to act my age when we go to the mall or flea markets together…I don’t know why she can’t remember that I’m a 30 year old female outside and a 14 year old boy inside. (Although two of her male clients thought I was 22 the other day, so I think I have some more fun years left before I have to start “being serious”.)

  37. My site was always about gender relations and the like, but it’s only this year I really started showing my support for MGTOW. The trolls I typically deal with aren’t upset with you/my commenters…they are upset with *me* for talking about men’s rights while owning a vagina. Thus, the trolls try to be misogynistic to me, not realizing that all they are doing is making me roll my eyes and hit the delete button. It’s difficult to mock someone when said target doesn’t give a damn if Troll #475 wants to believe I’m a fat, ugly cat lady.

    Saying so won’t make it true, Trolly McDoucheson. (I love making up names for them. Ah, life’s little guilty pleasures.)

  38. Well you know what, none of that seems weird to me! My sister tells me I dance like a dying duck in a thunder storm, my brother once accused me of reciting from Hamlet in my sleep, I honestly can actually out-do John Cleese in “silly walks”, my favourite superhero is Coyote because he always got the short end of the stick, and my entourage of pets has included a slug, a rat, and a cockroach.

  39. I have never had a pet slug, but I have had 4 (domestic) rats, a Madagascar Hissing Cockroach, and an African pygmy mouse. Oh, and a blue lobster. He was pretty cool…he liked coming to the top of the tank and having his head (neck? shoulders? combination thereof?) scratched.

  40. bloody fascinating! A wild skink came into my house and made a skilled and determined effort to tame me. He/she would sit under my computer desk and sit up as a dog or a cat would. It got to the stage where I could scratch him/her under the chin with my toe. My brother wouldn’t believe me until I showed him!

  41. I mean “ bloody fascinating” re the lobster. I’m a diver, so I know them fellas pretty well. If a crustacean did that for you, tarn, you have to take the prize in weirdness here. I give!

  42. I’m going to assume you meant “skunk” not “skink”…unless of course you were actually talking about a fat-tailed multicolored lizard who was *really* confused?

    It’s entirely possible that it was a domestic skunk, formerly someone’s pet. Unlike raccoons who usually get very territorial and perpetually pissed off after they turn 1, skunks will remain good pets if you’ve raised them from kits. Similar to ferrets but muskier and more attention whoring involved. The ones I had loved to climb up on my lap and sleep like a lapdog would, alongside the opossums. Some of the softest fur imaginable on ’em.

    You are lucky that one chose you for a pet, lol!

    Btw, my phone is dying so I’ll bid you a good night, sir.

  43. Sometimes I get ‘insights” out of the blue.
    It occurs to me, that as a society we have “objectified” sex. We see it as a
    completely exterior activity like any other recreational activity.
    Males are visually stimulated. So when they see an attractive woman in the
    media, or in real life. They would like to “own” her. If a woman is an object, and
    they are “cheated” from what is “rightfully” theirs, this enrages them.
    The media has objectified women. The hero “gets” the woman. And she is
    ALWAYS beautiful.
    This has nothing to do with REAL life, but people buy into it, because people
    subscribe it “magical thinking.” Who wouldn’t want to believe in the maximum
    result from the minium effort? That’s what the Lottery is about. Didn’t Eliot
    Rodger believe he HAD to win the Lottery? He could make trips into Nevada
    to buy Lottery tickets, but he couldn’t go to the Mustang Ranch, because
    “those kind of women” were beneath him.
    This is why it is so necessasary to seek “The Kingdom Of Heaven” first.
    “The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.”
    King Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines and he wrote the Book
    Of Eclesties, where he said, “All is vanity.” It’s not what you “have,” it’s what
    you are.

  44. “King Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines and he wrote the Book
    Of Eclesties, where he said, ‘All is vanity.’ It’s not what you ‘have,’ it’s what
    you are.”

    A truer word was never spoke

  45. “I’m a 30 year old female outside and a 14 year old boy inside. (Although two of her male clients thought I was 22 the other day…”

    Do a bit of math on 30 and 14 and you get 22!
    Res ipsa loquitur 😛

    You typed allo that stuff on your PHONE!? You’re kidding me!
    (your thumbs and fingers must be way, way smaller than mine)

    Yes, I am idle. I was here last night and back again this morning. I live alone in a very secluded place, and I am self-sufficient. After supplying my friends and rellies with seafood and vege, I am left with time on my hands. I have run out of improvements I can make to my place, and my larder is full!

    Now I really must go out and find something to do…
    I’ll boat to the retirement village and see if any old folks want me to push them around town…

  46. “And…I eat tofu. And *enjoy* it.”


    The Monty Python thing I can forgive(mostly), but tofu???

    The horror, the horror.

  47. A knife plunged through the ‘shoulders’ followed by a dip in boiling water is how lobsters usually commit seppuku.

    I’m afraid that your pet lobster was in fact, suicidal.

    Did you feed it tofu, by any chance? That’ll do it, just saying.

  48. Sorry Spawny,

    Time-wise, you and I are as far apart as it’s possible to be, and I missed your comment until too late. Otherwise I might have responded as follows:

    “Now Spawny, instead of jokes bordering on politically incorrect, what we want from you is your take on the subject at hand. Could you give us a Brit’s take on the questions for a NAWALT?

    (‘a NAWALT’ : a thing, singular ;)”


  49. Why do so many people assume that all women are the same, or all men are the same — and all in a bad way? I hardly know of anyone who feels that way. In my personal life, I can’t think of anyone — male or female.

    Many times what you expect to see becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    For instance, some men comment on my blog with a ton of hostility for women, And then wonder why women don’t like them. If you come across as hostile, You are going to create hostility in other people, or at least drive them away from you. And then you will probably blame them.

  50. @BroadBlogs

    Part of it could be chalked up to expectation bias…like when some MGTOWs say “all women want is a man’s money” or when some feminists say “all men are oppressors”. It’s obviously untrue, but if it’s all they consciously acknowledge and they subconsciously ignore any people who are different, then it becomes their reality. But some aspects of it are true. For example, women in general are less likely to get into a serious relationship with a man who is of a lower educational level or who makes significantly less money than them. This financial/resourceful objectification, in turn, makes men feel poorly if they aren’t wealthy or institutionally educated. There are outliers, of course…I’m one myself in this example. But statistically we aren’t talking about such people.

  51. I’m sure there are MGTOWs that dislike women, but many more are just indifferent to them. Or just don’t think they’re worth the chasing. Or the odds of finding the unicorn are so remote that the effort is best spent on other pursuits.
    The opposite of love isn’t hate, it’s indifference.
    Increasing numbers of men don’t think women are a path to happiness, or not a reliable enough one.
    Sort out family court, divorce rates and all the propaganda painting men as requiring civilising by women…then maybe get back to us…maybe.

  52. Or maybe not get back to us…that’s the whole point. We don’t really care. We don’t care about shaming, or praising.

    You’re in uncharted waters…without a paddle. Good luck with that, women.

  53. “We don’t care about shaming, or praising.”
    As it should be, Spawny. Living life for oneself and not getting bogged down by archaic gender roles or expectations is an excellent part of the MGTOWs philosophy, one that I just so happen to agree wholeheartedly with.

  54. @Cill
    I’ve always been a NAWALTer. The proportion wavers according to my level of optimism, but I’ve always been a NAWALT believer.

    MGTOW is about the costs of the search, value of the quarry and the odds of finding her. At least it is for me.

    YMMV and that is fine by me.

    Tarn is definitely a unicorn though, for the record.

  55. Lol…I’ve been to many MGTOW and MGTOW-related sites, but they are usually 99%-100% male commenters. I’m not disbelieving you, but how many women have actually shamed you because of your MGTOWdom? I’ve heard an encounter from Francis, but I’d like to hear from others too.

  56. @everyone

    There has been a lot of great feedback on this topic and its greatly appreciated. Im really not much of a writer but better yet an avid reader and really enjoy hearing others perspectives on these great topics.

    Im the one that wrote to Tarnished about this subject and all of the info has really been helpful.

    From what Ive read and gathered, the most helpful pieces of advice would have to be: Making sure our socioeconomic levels are congruent and somehow figuring out if their heart is kind.

    I will be a MGTOW until the day I die because I truly understand the world around me and the most important thing MYSELF.

    Again thanks for the help.

  57. Heheh I knew that, Spawny. I was trying to be facetious, but yeah, on reading my comment again it came across more serious than I’d intended.

  58. “women in general are less likely to get into a serious relationship with a man who is of a lower educational level or who makes significantly less money than them.”

    This is true, but it goes both ways, in that men tend to feel uncomfortable dating women of higher status than them. That’s because we live in a society that gender ranks men above women, so that a lot of men feel like it’s too “in your face” to be with a woman who is more successful than him.

    So successful men easily get women. But it’s harder for successful women to get men. Like Ethan Hawke divorced Uma Thurman because he was threatened by her greater success. And there are plenty more examples. If it were turned around, she probably wouldn’t care. My mom is an antifeminist and she often warned me that if I were successful I wouldn’t be able to get a man.

    And then there are extreme examples like this:
    Man Chops Off Wife’s Fingers Because She’s More Educated Than Him

    Both women and men internalize this gender ranking so that it feels natural and normal to them both.

    As a feminist, I think it’s all ridiculous.

  59. I agree that attempting to rank someone based on either sex or gender is ridiculous, but I don’t think you have to be a feminist to believe that. After all, I’m an egalitarian and I believe gender roles aren’t right for everyone and want both men and women to have the same basic rights under the law.

  60. @M,

    “Making sure our socioeconomic levels are congruent and somehow figuring out if their heart is kind.”

    For my own purposes, I would add:
    making sure there is a meeting of minds as to social and material expectations (thanks to populistlibertine for that advice)
    Tarnished at September 15, 2014 at 2:16 PM

    Otherwise we have had the ebullient and sometimes brilliantly chaotic world of the MGTOW at tarnishedsophia!

    Go well, my friend

  61. I’m older then the majority of people here. and I’d like to tell you about an
    observation I made: People like novelty, spice, originality, pep and enthusiam.
    In my time this occured when the Rock group, The Beatles first hit it big in the
    U.S. They had something that was never seen before or since. They made a
    huge splash and stood head and shoulders above other musical groups.
    Other groups at that time had memorible individual songs, but no one ever
    matched the mastery of the Beatles.
    I bring this up because I think a depressive, negative outlook on life is NEVER
    apporiate, even if you think you have justification for it. Many “deprived” people
    feel bitter. No one “deprives” you except your rotten attitude!

  62. Interesting discussion and overall blog Tarnished.
    Just because it irks me:
    Broadblogs, you say that:
    “Like Ethan Hawke divorced Uma Thurman because he was threatened by her greater success.”
    How do you know this? Has he given this explanation.
    In any case this kind of talk seems pretty gossipy to me and this one case has hardly any relevance for the big picture, wouldn’t you agree?

  63. I’m sure I’m not the only one to have noticed:
    Within these portals, the master of chaos bears more than a passing resemblance to the great Windsor Davies.

    “Rainbows and Lorra-lorra-pops” :

    Delicious metaphorical fodder for a unicorn. Windsor himself would approve. 🙂 Now here’s an intriguing thought, I wonder if they ever met? Cilla and Windsor must at some stage have been best of mates, if not bedfellows, surely? They were made for each other! You would know, Spawny, with your feet on the ground over there. We rely on you for the local goss, me old china!

    Yes indeed, tarn is *the* ultimate embodiment of the unicorn. Have you noticed, though, tarn has yet to explain the dislocated comment at September 18, 2014 at 5:45 PM ? Should we be worried about this? Could it be secret code for “vote yes”? In that regard, what in the name of all that’s holy is happening with the vote for independence? My ancestry is about to be ripped asunder! The goss, Spawny, the goss!

  64. I reckon I deserve a badge, people! Over the last coupla days I’ve broken up a dog fight, two fist fights, and a domestic, in between lodging civilized blog posts in here!

    Bring out the bugles, folks!

  65. (hopefully this works)

    this avatar is the guy on the other end of the phone in the scene

    It ain’t ‘alf hot Mum…Tarn that is your clue as to why Cill & I have gone barmy.

  66. Such silliness…if I were to use code words, they’d be much more ridiculous. “The carrot barks at midnight” or something to that effect. 😛

    No, my oddly placed comment at 5:45 was directed toward Spawny’s comment at 4:07 where he mentions not caring about shaming. It reminded me of a post by Francis in which a few middle aged ladies had actually tried to shame him…or at least made it known that they were very uncomfortable with the idea of a man being happy solo.

    I was wondering if anyone else had encountered such things in conversation.

  67. “I was wondering if anyone else had encountered such things in conversation.”
    I’m betting we all have. It’s a crime against nature, if not against god.

  68. @Cill
    just finished me tea, so I can answer your email more fully.

    “But, just what did you have for tea, Spawny?”, I hear you ask.

    “Glad you asked, Cill. I had ‘Tofu Surprise’ as it ‘appens. The (inevitable) surprise being there was no tofu in it”, came the reply.


    “Cilla and Windsor must at some stage have been best of mates, if not bedfellows, surely?”

    the era would have fitted, certainly. Liverpool / Wales is hardly a trek.


    The 5:45 issue.
    “Should we be worried about this?”

    I suspect tofu poisoning. A little goes a looooong way, after all. Sadly Tarn will likely refuse a steak diet detox plan.


    The referendum went as I expected, to be honest. When you ask the political leader of the ‘yes’ (pro-independence) campaign (who has been working for independence for 17+ years), “so…what currency are you going to use in your shiny new maoist utopia?” and all you hear are the squeals of tyres (tires for the Murikans), a huge crash, followed by “oh, don’t be so negative, trust me, it’ll work out”. Also, “So you want to be part of the EU, but a couple of countries (not England) look likely to bar your entrance, what’s up with that?” (and NATO).

    My surprise is that 45% thought it was a great idea to put the country under a ‘mendacious, slippery, xenophobic, economically illiterate demagogue Salmond’
    quote from :

    I think that we all just avoided an immense clusterfuck, however, moving forward we appear to have the opportunity to answer The West-Lothian Question ( ) which has been a carbuncle on English democracy for years. The result of which being; the chances of the left wing tosspots getting power in England during the next General Election would be much reduced by losing 40+ Scottish MPs voting on English only matters (i.e. they vote for laws on the English that do not affect their constituences – which is an outrage to any democrat. Labour is fighting to retain it). Leaving only the right wing tosspots to worry about, who are marginally less crap…maybe.

    Vote UKIP baby, you know it makes sense.

    TL;DR and with less naughty words (lesson to be learned – don’t ask me about politics)
    It was a disaster that shouldn’t have happened, but having happened it has opened up some chance of improved democracy in England. Sadly we still have the more independent Scottish sharing our currency, but then the alternative was worse).

    I could see pros & cons to the split, but the split would have been catastrophically expensive and prone to political incompetence. At the end of the day I didn’t want the split, but could have reconciled myself to it. Probably much as 55% of the people voting felt.

  69. @Lon Specter,

    Whether you are happy or sad, my old friend, I like reading your comments in here. There’s always something positive about them, way back in there.

  70. “The carrot barks at midnight”

    “while the peas continue their dreamless slumber…comrade”


    Ah! okay. So my suspicion that it (5:45) was aimed at me are confirmed. Okey-dokey

    If asked about my attitude to marriage, I just tend to roll my eyes, sigh and ‘sadly’ (i.e. grinning widely) say, “been there, done that, never again”. Most people drop it right there. My demeanor being I’m perfectly happy but the issue isn’t going anywhere constructive. ‘Unkie Spawny will be laughing off any shaming tactics, cos Unkie Spawny doesn’t care what your attitudes are’…I’m shockingly convincing.

    With men the conversation might casually swing towards misandric divorce laws and outrageous family court practices, denial of access to kids, or failure to enforce father’s visitation rights even when the breaches are flagrant by the “it’s all about the kids, honest” mother. Ooops pregnancies etc. (UK moves towards an equivalent to) VAWA misandry, primary aggressor and FDV / FRA / paedophilia (pedophilia for the Murikans) accusations to enhance the custody split.

    Never had any argument develop from that, but my attitude is visually, “I think marriage is a really bad idea for men, but if that’s your poison? best of luck, matey, I think that you’re a bit silly to go there, but your choice ultimately.”

    That answer your question, Tarn?

  71. “the master of chaos”

    Cill…so touched by that appellation…your my best-est mate from down-under.

    Tarn isn’t yet silly enough for my tastes, but you and I, Cill?, we can fix ‘er up.

    What a team that would make.

  72. Cill,
    Just a YouTube search…can’t remember why I went looking for ol’ Windsor in the first place though. Might be your name that cast my mind back that far. My previous avatar was Will Hay, love his stuff.

    The joke of that series is that the Sergeant Major is a proper soldier’s soldier…but he’s put in charge of a bunch of thespians out in India(?) to entertain the troops.

    Family entertainment from back in the day. Obviously dated now though. Far too innocent in tone. Nothing like Glee!!!

  73. Happy to oblige there, Spawno! (that’s an Aussification right there, they like to put an “O” where there should be an “ee” and vice-versa – the entire nation of Australia is dislexic [sic]).

    Seriously, thanks for all that info re independence. Some really good insights there, Spawny. I *always* get better “local” info from my overseas info-moles than I can get from the media. You have just join my small but elite band of info-moles, brother! Hope you don’t mind…

    I was thinking of asking Cilla to join but I think she’d ignore me. I can’t stand rejection! 😦

  74. Hey, maybe I should ask Windsor to join! He’s a “hail fellow well met” sorta bloke! Whatta ya reckon? Oh no, I just did a google-search and see he was born 1930, he’d be too old for that sorta lark! (no offence there, Spawny)

  75. “Tarn isn’t yet silly enough for my tastes”
    I dunno, mate, did you not see some of her wild behaviour further up this post?

  76. “how come ‘the master of chaos’?”

    As sure as Energy = Mass, Spawny = Master of Chaos

    It’s damn near a tautology, Spawny

  77. Tarn has more potential, I think.

    The ministry of funny walks, ‘you call that haggling’, fwee Bwian, he’s a wascal and a wapscallion isn’t a bad start though.

    BTW I watched it ain’t ‘alf hot mum as a kid, cheeky young whippersnapper.

    Will Hay was strictly a retro pleasure.

  78. Oh, regarding the referendum, the only other thing is the English outrage at the useless wanker English pollies tearfully begging for the union and waving our wallets as a sweetener. That has not gone down well.

  79. Lol, not as actual drugs. I don’t approve of “recreational” things like that. But there’s a lot of cool fungi that grows near my mom’s house, and I enjoy taking nature pictures.

  80. I think maybe tarn is a Benjamin Franklin lookalike, sitting respectably on the ground, feeling sad with Autumn leaves all around

  81. Whereas for my own unique avatar, I have selected a mug thrown against a wall. The tipple sorta alternates between blue and green…

  82. Well I never knew Ben Franklin looked so much like a budgee!
    (blink blink)
    Strewth, it’s still there…
    I starting to get worried now…

  83. “Farewell sweet earth and northern sky,
    for ever blest, since here did lie
    and here with lissom limbs did run
    beneath the Moon, beneath the Sun…”

    Ah, goodnight Spawny.

    Now I better go out and vote. It’s general election voting day here.

  84. A last comment before I go to watch rugby:

    Coming as I do from Down Under, you’d think I’d know something about the parakeet! I’m more familiar with New Zealand birds than Australian. My favourite NZ parrot is the Kea (“Kea” is plural as well as singular). I grew up in the Southern Alps, and therefore with Kea. They are clever!

    In the ski fields the Kea watch intently as people park their cars. When the people buy food, the Kea arrive as if out of nowhere, to be fed. If the people refuse to share food with them, the Kea will return to their car and vandalize it. It doesn’t matter how many other cars are there, the Kea know who owns what. They start by tearing off the windscreen wipers. They understand the differences between various models of car and where all the vulnerable parts are, and can do major damage.

    So feeding a Kea is a form of “protection money”: feed us or there WILL be retribution! They’ll be your best mate, as long as you feed them.

    Kea would follow me when I went climbing as a kid. They would always be just beyond my reach. Their intelligence was palpable. They’d study my every move with intense curiosity. I grew up loving the Kea.

    I bet the parakeet and cockatiel are lovable too. It’s a pity people have to be less predictably lovable than animals, but lovable people (e.g. my extended family) are the most lovable of all things.

    We are fortunate to have lovable people in our lives, kind tarn.

  85. It’s too early here for me to say goodnight, so I’ll say instead:

    You are to put in a good 4 hours of kip now, hear? Cill’s orders.

  86. Spawny Get:

    “Or maybe not get back to us…that’s the whole point. We don’t really care. We don’t care about shaming, or praising.”

    Sez the man who’s doing his darnedest to ingratiate himself with and impress the blog’s mistress. Funny.

  87. @anon

    There’s a huge difference between foolishly seeking personal validation through relationships with women and being an online friend to someone who happens to be of the female sex. I didn’t choose to be female-bodied, but I do choose to write about the fact our culture has many misandric aspects that prevent true equality.

    I suggest you read more of my blog before trying to pass judgement on my commenters.

  88. “Sez the man who’s doing his darnedest to ingratiate himself with and impress the blog’s mistress. Funny.”

    Yeah, the radical notion that I just happen to like Tarn because she’s a good person.

    She and I will never meet, it really doesn’t matter whatsoever whether she and I have male and female plumbing.

    grow up saddo. I certainly couldn’t give a shit about what you think, you’re pathetic.

  89. There’s always gonna be those guys who think liking someone who’s female automatically makes you a white knight, just like there’s always gonna be women who think you’re misogynistic if you want *real* equality. Eh, Spawny?

  90. It appears so Tarn. When was my first comment? I reckon it was over a year ago? (maybe more?)

    I think ms numbnuts thinks I just turned up and acted as if we were familiars…not so. We know each other better than that.

    Anyway, my comments here and elsewhere probably ruffled the feathers of some one. This is just her attempting pay back…bwahahaha…failed

  91. A very good pick-me-up are the songs by “Pet” (Petula) Clark.
    I’ve never know a person that didn’t have a positive viewpoint about her
    energetic songs.
    Tranished, I think your mom would know her better then you.
    The English women lead the way in that decade. Petula Clark, Dusty
    Springfield, and Cllea Black.
    The first Petula Clark song you should listen to is “My Love.”

  92. I realize I haven’t been fair, to label a man The Master of Chaos without so much as a word of explanation.

    I was referring to Spawny’s mischievous ability to divert conversations away from the the subject at hand, usually with hilariously chaotic consequences.

  93. tarn’s lobster

    It’s actually easy to “hypnotise” lobsters: lift him up so he’s “standing” on his claws, with his tail straight up, then rub the end of the tail. He will go into a blissful trance, or at least that’s what it looks like. If anything, tarn’s “head up to be scratched” tame lobster seems less weird than my “tail up to be rubbed” wild lobster.

    I’ve just noticed September 20, 2014 at 5:44 AM
    Tongue in cheek?

  94. Cill,
    I very much like the look of NZ. Beautiful country from what I’ve seen. Met plenty of Aussies and Kiwis whilst diving. We get on great.

    No worries about my label, it is well earned wherever I comment. In fact it’s a prized award.

    Cheers mate

  95. Hey Anon,
    If it was just a mistake, why not grab a name and join the fun? The more the merrier, it’s not a competition.

  96. @Lon Specter

    Cilla Black is a given (I had to say that though, didn’t I 😉 ). However… I think the late great sapphic Springfield might have been in a class of her own:

    Unhappy, yet defiant in artistic power.

  97. BIO- 47 year old former marine. I’m on my second marriage (I mean mistake) and we’ve been married almost 12 years.

    “What traits do you find attractive in your wives/girlfriends?” – Girlfriend is the keyword here. Before we got married, she was a hell of a lot of fun to be around. We are both football fanatics and Sundays in front of the TV with a 12 pack watching football with junk food was the norm. She was fun to be around outside of the football environment as well. We went shopping a lot…I love to shop unlike most guys so I love the mall….as long as football isn’t on. Anyway, after I married her she completely stopped being my girlfriend and started being my mother. She’s been like that ever since. She doesn’t get it when I say “stop being my mother and start being my girlfriend….I don’t want to have sex with my mother!!!”.

    “Were there any particular questions you asked on your first dates or early in the relationship that really made you think she was a good catch?” – Yes…..Im a Christian and so is she but I had a VERY bad upbringing in the church. It was very legalistic and no one could answer my legalistic questions. I was just supposed to abide by the rules and follow. When I left home at 18, that was the end of that shit but I kept my own personal relationship with God alive without placing myself inside the boundaries of “church”. When I met her, she said “if you’re going to date me you have to come to church with me”. I knew she was probably a keeper at that point. No other slut I had banged would have ever said such a thing so the fact that she stood for something good was intriguing. My mother stood up to my Dad like that and they ended up married for 55 years.

    “When did you realize she was the one you were willing to settle down with?” – When she wouldn’t go away. I was at one of the lowest points of my life when I met her. I had just been cheated on, left for dead and divorced just 3 years earlier….bitch took everything I had including my kids and I lost my career in the military over it as well. It was the tail end of a long streak of shit luck with women and I had sworn them off altogether, literally. I kept dating just to get laid now and then but I had no real interest in anything long term because all these other whores just wanted a free meal and a free movie to bang, no strings attached. I thought my depression, drinking, smoking and all otherwise un-christlike behavior would eventually get her to walk and I kept waiting for the day to happen but that day never came.

    Had I known then what I know now, I would not have married again under any circumstance. The simple fact is that even though my wife says “I’m not a feminist” she doesn’t understand all the underpinnings of how society has programmed feminism in her. For instance, one of my favorite sayings is “A dead clock is right twice a day and that twice more then me. Now go ahead and tell me I’m wrong about that too”…which she invariably does in some shape or form. Don’t get me wrong, she’s not a “let’s suck 50 babies out of my womb at Planned Parenthood” sort of whore feminazi. She just doesn’t understand how watching 5 minutes of TV with 2 anti-male commercials effects her attitude towards me at all. She thinks she can just turn the feminism off mentally because she has the right value system… doesn’t work that way at all.

    Do yourself a favor – DO NOT MARRY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Marriage is a prison and a trap for men. Stay in control of your own life boss. The ring you put on some whore’s finger is nothing more then a license to take everything from you.

  98. @wannabemgtow

    Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, painful though they may be. Hopefully your comment will help give other men pause before they commit to a relationship that does nothing for them.

  99. @wannabemgtow
    I think it would be fair to say I was as interested as “M” was, in seeing the responses to his question.

    Several men have given me the same advice, so I have to take it seriously.

  100. On the “Survey Results Part 2 page, honeycomb gives a link to

    The link says, in effect, a MGTOW is a man who wouldn’t risk imprisonment by marrying the person who can put him there. I think this is true: by marrying her he accepts a position much lower than hers in terms of legal power.

    The link also says marriage is a form of enslavement for men. In this sense, it is in itself an imprisonment.

    Previously, although I couldn’t see myself fitting into marriage because of the risk, I wondered if it could in general terms be viable for a MGHOW. Since “going your own way” doesn’t necessarily mean “going it alone” (you can have close male friends), could the companionship include “with a woman in marriage or ltr”? The link says it does not, and having thought about it a lot, I have to agree. For me, “Married MGHOW” is an oxymoron after all.

  101. Yes, the link and you have very good points, Cill. I tried to not assume anything during this survey (though I did rather expect fewer married men than responded), but after careful consideration I have to say that a MGTOW could be utterly single, in a short relationship, one night stands, or a FwB arrangement…but marriage is off the table. Instead, I’d be tempted to say that a married man can still know and partially embrace the MGTOW philosophy, but he’s not fully MGTOW when a ring is on his finger.

    “…by marrying her he accepts a position much lower than hers in terms of legal power.”
    Truth. Thus why I will not wed any man in this lifetime, since it wouldn’t be an equal relationship anymore.

  102. “Thus why I will not wed any man in this lifetime, since it wouldn’t be an equal relationship anymore.”

    That is a powerful statement, tarn. I have not heard anything remotely like it from the empowered sex. I wouldn’t mind quoting it, if you would agree. I need not reference it to you by name.

  103. You are free to both quote and reference me, Cill. Referencing might be better, in fact…then they can see that you aren’t making it up or mistaking my words.

    I don’t join in with the “Women Against Feminism” crowd, not because I disagree with what they say, but because I think a majority of them simply don’t want to lose their meal (male) ticket. If pretending to be for true equality gets men to stop GTOW, then I’ve no doubt that many will do so.

    However, I want guys to know there are such things as real WGTOWs…those of us who are in our 30s, 40s, or older who *never* have wanted to rope a man into being an eternal servant. People who just so happen to have the bodies of the “fairer sex” but refuse to accept the ideas of Marriage + Children + Large House = Only Path To Happiness that society tells us we somehow need. Or worse, deserve simply by virtue of being born with a vagina. MGTOWs may not realize it, but they have potential allies (not wives or girlfriends) in people like myself. I would gladly sign any petition, donate to any cause, or vote for any law that would ensure men get the same rights and freedoms that my sex enjoy. This I swear.

  104. Tarn,

    Ironically, if enough women took the same approach as you, and were as genuine as I know you to be, the milieu that’s so negative to men would eventually be forced to change by the greater numbers arraigned against them, finally freeing up independent-minded people to enjoy intimate relationships with the risk shared more equally.

    If enough women reject marriage for your reasons, marriage would eventually return as a possibility for MGTOW of my type, who presently reject marriage because of the risk.

  105. The issue I find with traditional concepts of marriage/relationships, and the thing that *must* change for what we are speaking of to occur, is this: Completeness.

    Supposedly we are all somehow “incomplete” till we find the “right” man/woman…then BAM. We’re finally whole, we’ve found our “missing piece”. So many people search their entire lives, going from one relationship to the next, desperately trying to locate their soul mate.

    Soul mates do not exist. Trying to find without what is not within is folly, and is (I believe) one of the major causes of our current situation. Men and women alike need to understand that they cannot find anyone who is literally their “other half”…If you don’t feel like a whole person by yourself, you should work on making yourself thus.


    These are the traits you need to have before even thinking of finding someone to share your time with. When you are as lucky as I to find a lover who you would die for, it is not a relationship based on Need, but Desire.

    I don’t need him. I have my own job, I pay my own bills, I finance my own loans, have my own home and car. I am strong enough to do most things like daily car maintenance and home repair by myself. I am motivated enough to learn new skills on my own, either through classes, videos, or books. I know my body very well, and do not require another’s presence for sexual satisfaction. BUT…despite not needing him, I still desire his company. I love him for *him*, not for what he can provide. From our own conversations, I know he thinks the same as I.

    It is so wonderful, knowing you aren’t Needed, but rather Desired. You retain the freedom to be you, to keep your goals/dreams/fears/flaws and yet have full acceptance in exchange for nothing more than your own acceptance of another. Only when the majority start realizing they must bring an Already Complete self to the relationship will we finally be able to work towards equality.

  106. I’ve known great relationships and grew up thinking they’d be what I could expect in the world of grown ups. They were of the type you mention. There was also another factor they had in common, a quality held by the women. That quality is, I believe, what makes such relationships possible. I labelled it “kindness” for want of a better word. I frequently visit women who have it. Only trouble is, they’re all related to me. I don’t even try to find one for myself. It’s not worth it in the present milieu.

  107. In another bit of irony, I’ve never known great relationships. Of me and my group of friends, every single one of us came from a “broken home”. Divorced, separated, remarried, both parents cheating on the other…the 7 of us saw just how cold and wrong the world of grown ups could be. Like you, I always expected the same for myself and so was utterly shocked when I found my lover.

    Strange, isn’t it? You saw good, healthy relations as a youngling yet do not dare risk all the stupidity of modern dating to create one. I saw hardly any at all, but essentially fell into a nearly perfect FwB/lover relationship.

    Kindness is key. If someone is kind, they have the ability to share, empathize, tolerate, love, sympathize, and give more than they take. It is truly one of the best traits to have, and one that I’d very much suggest that men and women look for in any potential relationship.

  108. My last comment is out of sync. It related to yours of October 21, 2014 at 1:01 AM, which defined the “kindness” well.

  109. Ironies aside, I am struck by the extent to which *both* of us have changed since I arrived here a year or two ago.

    Your 3:23: “The irony”. Not the first time I’ve noticed it in my life. I’m about to make myself scarce. See you tomorrow.

  110. “KINDNESS”: Predisposed to well-being, to affection, to finding (without delusion) something she likes or even loves about what he has just said or done. She will love his mannerisms and habits and idiosyncrasies as much as she did when the tingles were fresh. Otherwise she would never have married him.

    That is how I would describe any one of the good women in my life. I wanted to tack it onto your descriptions of kindness (all of which I agree with).

    This is how I’d describe too many of the rest:
    She will be predisposed to cold change, to rejection, to finding (with delusion) something she dislikes or even hates about what he has just said or done. She will loath his mannerisms and habits and idiosyncrasies as much as she loved them when the tingles were fresh. Otherwise she wouldn’t be divorcing him.

  111. Precisely! If a relationship (of any type, really) involves kindness from both partners, it will grow and flourish on it’s own accord. It is the water and sunlight of the relations garden…

  112. Just read it, Cill. 😀

    I’m so excited to see another post from you! Looks like all you need is a wrap up paragraph detailing your thoughts about the differences between MGTOWs and WGTOWs, or maybe why so few women are gtow compared to men. Is it social? Natural? A combination of the two?

    Is our future going to see more women becoming WGTOWs due to the rise of men going their own way…or will this just create more soft harems and plate spinning?

    Just some directions you can go with this. It’s all about what you want to do, after all. 😉

  113. “the differences between MGTOWs and WGTOWs”
    Trouble is, you’re the only WGTOW I’ve come across. I gather Enough WGTOW Are Like That (i.e. enough false ones to give the rest a bad name) ?

    Because of my ignorance on the subject, I’ll put those as questions and see what it looks like. Thanks

  114. Well I like kindness, forgivness, love. There are I believe lots of great people out there, both men and women. They mostly live their own lives and cause trouble to no one. It is mostly bad ones that grab attention. That being said, however. As for MGTOWs, i understand and respect their choices and decisions. If you feel that it is not a good idea, and afraid of your life being destroyed then do what feels is right. There is I think a bright spot living in the West. Men can choose being married or leaving. In some cultures, people both male and female really do not have a choice but to follow conventions. Such is life.

  115. And if you fail to follow society’s conventions or roles assigned to you, consequences are severe. You will be met with physical violence and forced against your will to be back in line, whether one likes it or not. So we are lucky in this regard. One important thing is to treat me as human being with feelings and dignity. I really hope both MGTOWs and married men instead of ztereotyping each other, respect one another and choices because people are diverse. Everybody will choose differently, and people have different opinions and experiences. Many problems stem from lack of understanding and jumping to conclusions. Some MGTOWs whink that married men are just wage slaves for wives, while some married people and society think that MGTOWs are a bunch of pathetic losers who have no life, and just sit in the basement playing video games or just rant and rave about women all the time in the echo chamber of the internet. But these are caricatures. Things are much more complex. Only with understanding, compassion, and listening attitude can we fix the mess we are in.

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