Tarnished

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Unfortunate Virgin, and his post about our date a few months ago. If you aren’t following him already, you honestly should.

The (Formerly) Unfortunate Virgin

For the longest time I’ve been seeking a serious, long-term relationship, convinced that’s what I really want.  But the more I think about it, the more I realize that it’s not what I want at all.  At least not right now.  I’ve grown so accustomed to being single and I relish my freedom and independence.  Not to mention that I’m so busy with work and extra-curricular activities that a relationship would just suck up my remaining time.  So while I don’t really want someone to share my life with just yet, it would be nice to have someone to occasionally do fun things with.  And stick my penis into.

In other words, I’ve decided I’m looking for a friend with benefits.

Friends With Benefits: Mila Kunis and Justin Timberlake

These feelings began their distant rumblings several months ago, intensifying when I came across this post by fellow blogger Tarnished Sophia.  She has a long-term monogamous FWB, and the more I…

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152 thoughts on “Tarnished”

  1. My Tarnished is NOBODY’s “friend with benefits!” She is NOBODY’S SKANK!
    Is it her job it ENTERTAIN you like “baby Louise” in” Gypsy?” How DARE you
    wipe your feet on her?! Tarnished-like any person only wants to be LOVED!
    Don’t do it Tarnished! Don’t do what these self-pitying, cry baby, con artists tell you
    what to do! A person with your mindset is much to precious to end up dead
    in some isolated field, or some grungy bathroom floor. Find someone that loves
    you for you, and NOT some premature ejaculation B.J.
    The person who denigrated you has had PLENTY of chances. He just is looking
    for the unattainable! That’s why he will never OBTAIN his objectives. And BTW,
    What about your current “significant other?” Why does HE think you are
    “disposible?” Why is he content to let men run their grubby hands all over your
    body when ever you take a simple trip to the mall?
    I can see that as a victim of abuse you’ve had “problems.” You may have a difficult
    time controlling your “urges.” You need a person who will love YOU for YOU
    regardless of your past. A man that would sing the song “Tell Her No,” by the
    Zombies.

  2. Okay, Missattempts/Lon…I need you to calm down for a minute.

    First, I am a friend-with-benefits. I have been one for 8 years. This is what my relationship with my lover *is*. We have been very upfront about it with each other, and are both highly satisfied and content with it. You are correct that I’m not a “skank”, but being a FwB doesn’t make you one either.

    At absolutely no time did UV make it seem like it was my job to entertain him or share any part of me I didn’t want to. He is a good man, as are most men. I certainly do not feel that he “wiped his feet on me”, nor do I think he is a con artist or a cry baby who engages in blatant self-pitying.

    I appreciate that you think I have a good/pleasant mindset. I think I do too, and I consider the feelings and needs of everyone I meet, including yourself. I already have someone who loves me for me…my FwB. He cares enough about my sexual needs that, when it became clear he couldn’t fulfill them all the time, he requested that I find an additional sex partner. This is what I attempted to do with UV, and sadly for both of us, it didn’t work out. At absolutely no point has my lover made any indication that he believes I’m “disposable”. Our relationship is technically an open one…we are each free to have sex with other men or women. The fact that I’m demisexual and he is happy with just me for the past 8 years is simply serendipity. I’d have no qualms if he took an additional lover, just as he wouldn’t have been anything but happy for me if UV became another FwB. We don’t own each other, after all.

    Another thing; My lover is *not* content to let others touch me without my permission. But the fact of the matter is that we both work, we don’t live together, we both have our own lives, and sometimes crappy things happen to each of us. The fact that every once in a while some douche thinks he is entitled to rubbing up against me or grabbing my tits doesn’t mean my FwB condones it…It means that I have a life other than the times he’s with me, and humanity is all around, as is typical in a society like ours. I wouldn’t want him to escort me everywhere, anyway…part of the reason we are “just” friends with benefits is our mutual need for independence.

    You are right. I did suffer abuse from the two men in my life who were supposed to care the most, my father and stepfather. But I’m not a victim anymore…I’m a survivor. That means I’ve learned to deal with the flashbacks/nightmares as they come, and live my life as well as I can. Like any deep wound, the scars are there in my mind, but that’s all they are now…scars. My urges are, I think, my body making up for the years I attempted to kill my libido. I now welcome my sexual needs, and know they are good and safe and right to have. If I masturbate everyday to “control” them, then that’s fine with me. I am satisfied to do so, and cherish even more the times I’m with my FwB, who I assure you, *does* love me regardless of my past and for who I am in the here and now.

    I say this with all the love in my heart, Lon: I appreciate you trying to look out for me. I appreciate that you think I’m a good person, and I agree with you. I think you are a decent human being as well. But you do need to stop putting me up on a pedestal. I’m not a goddess, and I should not be treated as one, nor should any other female-bodied person. I make mistakes, I screw up sometimes, I’m only human. Just like everyone else here, including you.

  3. I added a comment on the uv blog. To say my reaction was different to the first reaction here would be an understatement. I saw it light-hearted .

  6. I’m going to bed now, but saw this comment and just wanted to say I don’t think you had done/said anything wrong. I’ve been busy as hell today (worked from 11:30am Sunday – 2:00am Monday…hence why I’m still awake), and so haven’t been available to comment myself. But I’ve read all the things you and my other blog friends have written, and I really appreciate your kind words.

  7. I guess you don’t know what REAL love is because you never had the oppertunity
    to experiece it. If a man doesn’t love love you like the song “Indiana Wants Me” he
    doesn’t love you!

  8. I don’t think love is measurable, since it means different things to individuals. Even if it’s not “real” to one person, it could be the most concrete emotion possible to another.

  9. What an intense first comment! I’m hesitant to express what I’m thinking lest it be taken as an attack, which I do not intend.

    @missattempts (re: your 2nd comment just above)

    Love can be a very intense experience. It doesn’t always happen with someone who is good for you, or who will stay with you a la tradition. It very definitely opened my eyes to it when it happened to me. I just can’t be certain that my emotional investment was matched by the person who was interacting with me. Hindsight tells me that I was being manipulated, but at the time I didn’t care.

    It’s OK to feel intense feelings like real love, but for those who rarely or never had felt it before, it can be the bait in a trap. Trust is vital, and trust must be earned. It can be hard to stand up for one’s self when one is feeling things never felt before.

    I don’t regret my encounter with feeling real love. I just wish that it didn’t end badly. I lost her to cancer before there was a chance to mend fences.

    Not looking for a fight, just sharing my thoughts.

  10. What a weird ‘contribution’ by MissBehaved. But I guess she’s the arbiter of human souls, and finds much to fault and improve in others here.

  11. I would say it’s IMPOSSIBLE for any rationally minded person NOT to love
    “Tarnished.” I just thought that the UV was toying with her, which I didn’t appreciate.
    I’ve know types like UV, and based on what I’ve seen, there’s no reason at all to
    believe he will ever end his “drought.” To my point of view, he has had sufficent
    oppertunities. Also, I don’t like his insistance that the candidate must be perfect,
    and his denigrating comments about the women’s bodies.

  12. I feel messed up for doing this but I have to ask what exactly did you hope to accomplish by going on a date with the UV? From the comments you left on his blog it seems like you knew there was little to no chance that it would work out. I feel like all you did was add to the long list of disappointments that he has had to deal with, which is kinda shitty. Maybe you were unsure about your feelings and what kind of relationships you wanted at the time of the date but that’s still kind of a crappy thing to do since you made your confusion yet another frustrating episode for him.

    I want to be clear, I don’t think your a bad person and I certainly don’t think you wanted to hurt him but his article about this and your responses left a bad taste in my mouth.

  13. “Maybe you were unsure about your feelings and what kind of relationships you wanted at the time of the date”

    That’s my recollection of the conversation here at the time. I didn’t and haven’t visited UV. And I don’t tend to read the posts about pink bits here.

    Can I suggest that both sides were outside their comfort zones at the time?

    Even with the best of intentions on both sides, people get hurt. I truly wish that that wasn’t the case. But it’s happened to me a few times, much to my regret.

    I wish them both better luck the next time round.

  14. Hi random person.

    What I’d hoped to accomplish was giving sex to someone who hadn’t had it before but clearly desired it, and to see if I could find/have another sexual partner.

    My naivete in thinking I could change my sexual orientation/preference (demisexuality) if I just tried hard enough was my fault. UV and I had corresponded through emails for months, and talked on the phone a few times…we shared many things about ourselves and I cared about the sexual troubles he was going through. Foolishly, I’d thought that might be enough to give me a “push” toward non-monogamy. It wasn’t, but I still offered/wanted to give sexual pleasure in the form of a blowjob, which he declined.

    I believed I could make myself want another FwB, but when presented with the opportunity, I found it really was not anything I could do. You also have to realize a few things:

    -I’m 30, and this date with UV was my first since high school. The last time I actually dated, I was 17 and that only lasted a few days as I was still terrified of physical touch…which the boy made clear he wanted. It was only 8 years ago that my current FwB/only partner showed me that sexual acts didn’t have to hurt or degrade. I may be reading into your question too much, so forgive me if I am, but you make it sound as though I 100% knew it wouldn’t work with UV and I went on the date just for laughs…rather than it being two people with social difficulties making a mistake in their expectations.

    -I have mental scars that sometimes open up again at unexpected times. I’ve gotten a *lot* better at recognizing when something could trigger me, but I’m yet relearning how to be intimate, or even receiving touch from other people. I admit I get frustrated with my seeming lack of progress in this area, and push my own boundaries too far. Recently I had a flashback while attempting to shower with my FwB, and he…the man I would willingly take a bullet for…had to comfort me as I rocked on the bottom of the shower stall, keening and shaking, simply because we thought I could handle the experience and were clearly wrong. Likewise, it’s my fault for believing I was ready to have another partner, and I’ve already apologized to UV for pushing myself but being unable to commit to a relationship of the caliber he thought he wanted at the time.

    We’ve talked since then, and we are okay. We still comment on each others blogs, and I appreciate UV’s insights. So if the guy who actually had the date with me and suffered the disappointment of no relationship is willing to let it go and remain blog friends, I’m unsure why you are upset about it. Yes, it was a “frustrating episode” for him…but do not for a minute assume it wasn’t incredibly frustrating for me, too. Why do you think I paid for our entire meal and still offered to perform oral sex on him after acknowledging that I wasn’t able to give him the relationship he said he wanted? I wished to make sure he lost nothing other than the mutual time we spent together.

    I’m sorry that his article and my responses left a bad taste in your mouth, but I am not sorry for looking out for my mental/emotional health or refusing to lead UV on.

  15. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO HAVE SEX WITH ANYONE! YOUR ABUSER’S
    IMPRINTED THAT IDEA IN YOUR MIND SO THEY COULD HAVE FREE REIGN
    TO ABUSE YOU! THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD HAVE LOVED YOU THE MOST
    B-E-T-R-A-Y-E-D YOU.
    IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CLINICAL LITERATURE ABOUT ABUSE
    VICTIMS, YOU KNOW THEY VERY OFTEN BECOME SEXUALLY PROMISCIOUS.
    SINCE YOU ARE NOT COMPLETELY HEALED, ALL OF YOUR ASSOCIATIONS
    ARE SUSPECT! THE PEOPLE WHO YOU CONSIDER YOUR “FRIENDS” MIGHT
    NOT ACTUALLY BE YOUR FRIENDS!
    THERE ARE A LOT OF SNAKES IN THE MANOSPHERE COMMUNITY LOOKING
    FOR CONFUSED VULNERABLE WOMEN. THERE ARE PLENTY OF LOWLIFE
    MEN LOOKING TO CON WOMEN IN GENERAL. A MAN CAN NEVER GET
    ENOUGH SEX, JUST LIKE A DOG CAN NEVER GET ENOUGH TABLE SCRAPS.
    LIFE IS H-A-R-D, SO LET THESE WHINERS EITHER JINN UP OR END IT.
    NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY, SOPHIA IS N-O-T OBLIGATED TO BE
    AN ANANTONOMICAL “PLAYGROUND” FOR THESE NARCASSIST WEAKLINGS!
    IT IS SOPHIA WHO SHOULD HAVE REASSURING ARMS WRAPPED AROUND
    HER, NOT THE CRYBABIES WHO CLAIM THEY “CAN’T GET ANY” JUST
    BECAUSE THEY HAVE UNREALISTIC & IMPOSSIBLE STANDARDS!
    BTW, SOPHIA, DON’T TRY TO BE A “MAN!” THERE’S NO NEED TO BE ONE.
    YOU CAN SEE HOW SCREWED UP THEY ARE!

  16. Missattempts/Lon,

    I don’t think anyone was saying I’m obligated to have sex. Random Person was probably thinking I was a cock tease like a lot of women are, someone who *knows* they have sexual power and uses it as a tool. While I certainly wish they had read more of my blog before commenting to understand that I find such things atrocious, I can hardly fault them for viewing the aforementioned date through that lens. Sometimes manosphere guys see things that aren’t there…they are only human, after all.

    I do know that many sexual abuse victims become promiscuous, mostly because we are taught that the only way to show love is through sex. I do catch myself doing this every once in a while, but thankfully my demisexuality means it’s constricted to my one FwB.

    I hardly think all of my associations are suspect though. Some of my friends I’ve known since 4th grade…I don’t think they are pretending to be friends with me, nor do I think my newer friends are. The fact that they are all men doesn’t mean I’m in any danger. Most men are decent people, and I don’t think incels are narcissistic. Although some want to take women’s rights away to make it impossible/extremely difficult for them to be single, the majority just want a woman to love and don’t wish to make it forced.

    And I’m not trying to “be a man”. Gender dysphoria isn’t something you can choose to have or not. I have a male-type brain…that is not something I can change, just as I can’t truly change my body from a female one to a male one. It sucks, but as you said, life is hard.

    BTW, a lot of women have unrealistic and impossible standards too.

  17. I don’t think you owed him sex nor do I think you’re a cock tease I just thought that there was a very real chance that the whole endeavor caused more harm than good. I’ll admit my original attitude was something like ‘you should have anticipated every potential pitfall and known that it wouldn’t have worked out’ which is clearly unrealistic buy try to put yourself in the shoes of an incel for a second, especially a guy like the UV who’s gone to the trouble of documenting his frustration for the world to see even if its done anonymously. For months he was looking for a girlfriend, he didn’t just want sex, he wanted to know what its like to be loved and to experience physical and emotional intimacy. Failure after failure made him give up on that ambition and instead he tries to get into a friends with benefits type setup instead. Working towards that end he meets someone that follows his blog and knows how miserable he is at times only for that to fall through as well.

    The UV is a kind and patient guy, arguably too kind and patient but I cant imagine that it feels good to be turned down even after you lower your expectations. Again I’m getting into the dangerous territory where it sounds like I’m saying you owe him sex, you don’t, I just thought that it was shortsighted to let things get that far. But then that’s easy for me to say, You didn’t know how any attempt to take on another friend or lover or whatever would go until your tried and it was shitty of me to say it was shitty of you to even try. (oh irony)

  18. Hi again, RP.

    I’m relieved to know you see that your original attitude wasn’t realistic, and that you’re trying to look out for UV. If I may, I don’t think our date caused him more harm than any of his others, especially as he got a free meal (no financial loss), good conversation (I made sure to ask about his life/thoughts rather than just rambling about my own), no guilt-tripping (he was over an hour late), and an offer of sexual experience (which was declined). Of course, it’s up to UV to say if he actually enjoyed himself or not, but as far as my own, much smaller, dating history goes, I thought it went well even if the outcome we both desired didn’t happen.

    I guess at this point I’m just confused as to what I should have done instead…?
    Not gone on the date at all? Not see if we were compatible in real life? Not even try to see if I could make him, and myself, happy?

    I do try to put myself in UV’s shoes, as well as other incels I follow. The closest I can come is mentally reversing my constant fear of touch into a unrequited desire for touch…It’s essentially the polar opposite, but if that pain is on the same level, then such feelings are truly terrible. Were that I could force myself to help them, I would. But I can’t…

  19. Random,
    I see what you’re saying, but you seem to be forgetting that both people have issues that they’re working through. From what I remember Tarn was talking about getting a new partner and sharing the thinking that she was going through. Iirc it was me that said I didn’t believe that she was the casual sex type. I asked her to think about it. That not all guys want casual sex – I was concerned that her gender dysphoria and misunderstandings about what men actually were like (as opposed to society saying we all sleep around) might be leading her astray.

    I think that Tarn was feeling her way as much as UV.

    There’s no ‘blame’ to be shared. Just two people trying to find a partner to share with. It didn’t work out. That’s a shame, but that’s everyday life. I hope that both sides learned from it and can move forward with better self knowledge.

  20. Random, you’re making it sound as if she was the experienced wordly-wise one and he the relative innocent. He’d had experience of the dating scene, she’d had none. For all her experience with one partner, she had no personal precedents to tell her how she’d react to another man. Her FWB partner asked her to try and she did, obviously with every intention of making it work if she could.

  21. Thank you, Spawny. You did indeed remind me that social expectations of males being promiscuous wasn’t indicative of true masculinity, and could in fact be harmful.

  22. I appreciate your input, Cill. Thank you.

    Honestly, I’m not upset at Random for being protective of UV. It’s commendable that someone cares about incels, imo. The fact that a great deal of the manosphere says that “all females have ridden the cock carousel by the time they’re 25-30” might’ve led to him thinking the same was true for me. In which case, yeah…I would’ve been the more experienced/worldly person in this situation. However, the fact that I have had 1 sex partner in the last 8 years compared to UV’s 0, but UV had 20+ dates in the last 2 years compared to my 0, served to equalize our date, I think.

  23. I just wanted you to listen to your feelings, not some bullshit about what it meant to have a male mind.

    There’s something very out of whack about telling everybody that all men are defined by the sex they can get. And that there’s something wrong in being selective. American Pie isn’t just a comedy, it’s also tragedy.

  24. I’m not annoyed by anyone either (FWIW) but if you analyse the situation incorrectly, you learn the wrong lessons.

    Females (not talking about Tarn) aren’t omniscient agents of super ebul, if anything they’re even more screwed up than men (on average).

    Why not ask Tarn about life in the female social sphere? She grew up with a ringside seat on that crab-bucket.

    It was my morbid interest in that that initially made me curious about Tarn’s experiences. Having got to know her (at a distance), I found myself an honest friend. One that in some ways seems very young, in others? Terribly wise beyond her years. Tarn is not the enemy of men. Read her blog.

  25. “There’s something very out of whack about telling everybody that all men are defined by the sex they can get.”

    Too true. This is where I feel certain parts of the manosphere fail…the idea that only “alphas” have sex and if you either don’t want casual sex or can’t get casual sex you’re necessarily a “beta” just sounds wrong. Likewise the corresponding idea that the only thing of value a woman has is her looks, and when those start to change with age she is somehow worth less as a person.

    Holy crap, but both of these are terrible things to teach people! Men aren’t low value if they don’t have sex or don’t bring in the big bucks. Women aren’t low value if they aren’t solid 8-10s or blushing virgins.

    Your worth as a person is in whether you have good morals and ethics. Kindness, loyalty, compassion, empathy, generosity, honesty, sympathy, discipline, willpower, care, love for your neighbor and a healthy mind/body. Why not tell men and women that *these* traits matter more than getting laid or dolling yourself up?

  26. Boy, everybody is really fired up over here! I can’t believe all the fuss that is being made. We interviewed each other for a potential FWB position, it didn’t work out, we moved on, and I haven’t thought much about it since. End of story.

  27. “Why not ask Tarn about life in the female social sphere? She grew up with a ringside seat on that crab-bucket.”

    The experiences of Tarn in all-women company, listening to them yacking about men.
    As I recall, some of her observations were priceless pearls…
    Something along the lines of, “crap do I have to listen to this rubbish again…”
    I had mental images of the proverbial fly trying to get his feet un-stuck from the wall and his ass the hell outa there…

  28. @UV

    Lol, I know.
    I fully admit I’m out of practice with this dating thing, but I thought first dates essentially *were* interviews? It’s nice that Random is so concerned about you and your emotional/mental health, but I think he’d be better off giving you support on your posts about the bitches who stood you up or were rude, entitled princesses during your time together.

  31. Something like that, tarn, and it has got me going again, I’m afraid.
    “Smiling and nodding has gotten me quite far during the ones I go to in order to make my mother happy”
    Excuse me for a minute…
    Hahahahahahaha!

  32. Oh come on…Like you’ve never had to smile and nod while trying not to think about how you really wish you could be doing anything else at that moment?

  33. “but why would I go to a reptile expo? I don’t like lizards”
    I’ve got to stop this, but the *only* thing that could’ve made that funnier would’ve been blue lobster instead of reptile.

  35. Sorry, sorry, but it’s the imagined response that tickles me pink:
    “but why would I go to a blue lobster expo? I don’t like blue lobsters”
    😉
    Enough.
    In those links there’s enough good stuff to bring me back to my senses. Definitely worth the read.

  44. You’ve got it ALL wrong! It’s NOT about male vs. female. Or “rich relationed” vs.
    “incel.” It’s really about HEALTHY VS. PATHOLOGICAL. It’s about “wellness ” vs.
    Personality Disorder. There are numerious personality disorders. The three worst
    are: Psychopathy, (Caused by brain damage) Sociopathy (Caused by abuse) and
    Bordeline Personality disorder. (Also caused by abuse.)
    The objectional characteristics that the genders find with one another-the “use” and
    “abuse,” are caused by these factors. As for the “icel,” they were also likely abused.
    They may be a victim of “Dependant Personality Disorder,” or “Avoident Personality
    Disorder,” or Asperger’s.
    Each gender wants to blame the other. It’s always the other person’s fault.
    I know that women struggle with their own problems just like men do. It’s just a
    case of “weak on weak” agression. Only a weak person needs to attack another
    weak person to boost their ego.
    For many years I behaved like the typical embittered person. The things OUTSIDE
    myself were ALWAYS to blame. All too late, I discovered that the REAL PROBLEM
    wasn’t the OUTSIDE things, but my REACTION to those outside things.
    Why do people have different dispositions and reactions to the world? Is it nature?
    Is it nurture? Is it a combination of both? But one thing IS certain: We see the world
    NOT as it is, but as WE are. And ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING.
    If we suddenly got EVERYTHING we THINK we want, it would be like “King Midas”
    or “The Monkey’s Paw.”
    I know no longer “hope” for a change in outer circumstances. I ask God for STRENGTH
    to face anything He sends my way.
    People have engaged in sex, and have had “significent other’s” from the dawn of time.
    If THAT was the answer to contentment, we should have a lot more happy people
    then we do. The answer is MINDSET. ATTITUDE!
    People should count their blessings, instead of complaints. One of our biggest
    blessings is SOPHIA!

  45. “One of our biggest blessings is SOPHIA!”
    Cheers to that.

    I don’t think that incels necessarily suffer from anything other than some combination of:
    bad luck
    personality that doesn’t enjoy games about serious feelings – flirting
    not being a male 10
    not being rich
    a toxic environment for men and boys (much worse than in my day)

    I haven’t blamed incels for anything. The only suggestion I’ve made is to drop the hate, because it hurts the guy. For one thing, women and girls are going to run away from the anger. I realise that’s going to trigger some, but I hope it helps others. I’m not their enemy either, fuck it, I truly empathise. I’m no Brad Pitt. I was just born in a slightly less toxic time.

  46. Missattempts/Lon,

    I agree with what you’ve said, but I think you are putting me on a pedestal again…I don’t deserve praise for being a good person. It really should be the default setting, not something worth bragging about.

  47. Ahh Taaaaarrrrnnnnn. I’ve opened the beer (‘cheers’), can’t I finish it?

    I promise there’s no pedestal involved. I’m only praising what’s true (pinky swear)

  48. Lol, it’s not really you, Spawny…

    I guess I’m just sensitive to any large amounts of praise right now. My stats had said I was getting some traffic from MGTOWHQ.com, and when I checked out the link it was about “feMRAs” like JudgyBitch and myself (I didn’t know I was a feMRA…I’ve never used the label) getting more attention than they deserve just because we are female. All I want is to support men/boys because I know the deck is stacked against you.

    It’s not my fault, or choice, to be female.
    I didn’t specifically request to have tits and a vagina.
    I don’t talk about the difficulties men face because I want attention, but because it’s the *fucking right thing to do.*

    Sigh…

    I guess it’s just strange. Men complain that women don’t give a damn about the male sex, but then when some do, they are mocked or told it’s not their place to talk about men’s rights. So, what is one to do?

  49. I’m on the mo’fo patriarch-net right now white knighting for you princess 😉

    Just joking.

    At some point, unfortunately, you just have to let the idiots believe what they want to believe. Used to piss me off, now I just shake my head, hope for improved mental health drugs in the future (for them, or me, or both – any combination should work) and walk away. You cannot fix what someone thinks if they’re not open to reason, or too angry, or both.

    The proof of your views is on your blog. The proof I’m defending a friend factually is on your blog and mine. *shrug*

  51. No-one should have to apologize for being female either UNLESS… they fail to distance themselves from the bigotries of feminism. I have real problems with women who knee-jerk support feminism.

    If I were a woman, I would *have* to distance myself from it, otherwise I’d know that at the very least I’d be giving it my tacit support. But if I were a woman I wouldn’t think as I do now. The group-think instinct would change me completely, and that’s the whole problem right there. I haven’t got a single cell of group-think in my body.

    Tarn is a person who, if she changed from thinking as a man does to as a woman does, would have a similar problem. The fact that she, as a woman, sees the stinking system for what it is, as a MGTOW does, shows that she’s already there. She lacks group-think before she even starts. There’s so much evidence for this, here on this site.

    I’m suspicious of *any* people who appear to operate on group-think, and that would even include pockets of group-think within MGTOW. Good luck to you, whoever you are, but it’s just not me and never will be. I suspect that most MGTOW are strongly individualistic.

  52. Dear Sophia,
    Does your FWB sing the song “Precious And Few,” by Climax? He should!
    Why would he NOT put you on a pedastle if he REALLY loved you? I can think of no
    other way. Then again, I don’t use HATRED of ALL women to justify my lack of
    sucess with any woman.A song like the above would summerize my viewpoint about
    how love should be, then again, I DO have Venus in Pisces and the Moon in Cancer.
    These are “womanish” placements. You happen to be a “manish” woman, so I guess
    it’s a Yin/Yang thing.
    When I think of the “self-pitying excuse-making” that many people make: “I HAD to
    commit that crime because I was abused…” And I think of what you overcame,(And
    ARE STILL in the process of overcoming, I DO give credit, because credit is DUE!
    I knew a boy who had simular problems to overcome. He was placed into foster care.
    He lived in many homes and was sexualy abused. He became cynical and bitter.
    It became too much, and he ultimately tried to kill himself. Some little children
    spotted him and called for help. He was made to stay in the state hospital, but he
    didn’t stay long. He rebounded quickly because he had an inner strengh that most
    others lack. He was a discliplined and “conservative” kind of fellow, who could see
    through B.S. This put him apart from the rest of his family, who he was dismayed
    to find out were a bunch of weak parasites. I lost track of him, but found out that
    he got married at a very young age, as often happens to abuse victims. His “better
    nature” carried him through, SAME has YOU!
    Oh yes, I LOVE MY SOPHIA, whether she believes that she deserves it or not!
    She most definately deserves ALL the love and support she can get!

  53. That is a lovely song, Missattempts. Thank you for recommending it.

    My lover doesn’t put me on a pedestal because then I’d be too far from him and he knows I prefer equality. How could I comfort him from above when he’s frustrated or upset? How would I be able to see his smile or hear his laugh if we are “apart”? The thing about pedestals is this: They are pretty to behold, but easy to get knocked off of. I enjoy being loved as a person, not worshiped as a goddess.

  55. Thank you, Emma. I appreciate the advice you gave, nonetheless. Perhaps I will be able to use it in the future, if my FwB ever moves on from our relationship.

  56. This part: “Finally I sussed out the reason for her hesitation, and it turned out she was not really on board with the idea of taking on a second FWB. It was more something that her lover wanted her to do, rather than something she wanted to do.”

    Supports what I’ve suspected when reading through the last few months, Sophia.
    I think you should think about that, and if it’s true….I’ll just state it plainely: That isn’t good.

  58. “It was more something that her lover wanted her to do, rather than something she wanted to do.”
    Noted. I can’t add anything to what I’ve already said.

  59. If your ‘lover’ is trying to convince you to take on more partners and you are uncomfortable with the idea, but doing it because he wants you to, that is called manipulation.

    You shouldn’t be pressured into doing something sexual that you don’t want to do. Especially when it involves taking on new partners.

    I’ve never really understood the title demisexual either, to be honest. Why all these labels for somthing that’s normal? It’s actually quite normal to want to have an emotional connection with the person you have sexual intercourse with. Humans aren’t goats.

  60. Here’s another question. I hope you don’t mind my asking Sophia, but you seem pretty up front about this stuff.

    How do you know that you are bisexual if you’re only sexually attracted to people you have a strong emotional connection with and have never been with anyone but your current lover (a man)?

  61. I think we needed the term to differentiate between those who could partake of casual sex/one night stands vs those who couldn’t. Other than that, I don’t think it’s used very often.

    And don’t worry, he isn’t manipulating me into doing anything. If he said something like “I refuse to have sex with you again till you have another partner” or “I won’t talk to you anymore unless you have sex with someone else”, then yes. That would be manipulation.

    But he isn’t doing that, and has never threatened such things. He was pushing me to have more partners because
    1. He’s had 12, and thinks it makes our relationship unequal
    2. It’s what he’s done in the past (had more than 1 sexual partner at a time)
    3. He knows I have a big appetite, and doesn’t want me to “starve” when he’s away/too busy to visit.

    I assure you, he’s not a manipulative person. I know people like that…hell, I grew up being manipulated. This isn’t that.

  62. I know I’m bisexual because I’m physically aroused by naked men and women. The difference is that even though my body is aroused, I have no further desire to actually have sex with that person.

  63. “He knows I have a big appetite, and doesn’t want me to “starve” when he’s away/too busy to visit”
    And he knows you’re demisexual?
    Here I am wading in when I said I wouldn’t, but I can’t begin to understand his 3 reasons (especially the first 2)… unless there’s another motive at work in which case I’m afraid I get it all too clearly.

  64. He’s a bit…cynical about the idea of demisexuality. Not that he doesn’t think it exists, but that I’m one. He thinks it’s a “blockade” I procured from the abuse, and therefore something to potentially work through.

    We’ve had a long talk about it though, and he agreed to not push the issue anymore regardless of how he feels about it. And he has lived up to said promise, which makes me very happy.

  66. “1. He’s had 12, and thinks it makes our relationship unequal.”
    Equality is irrelevant except in the mind of a partner who wants to “get even”. It doesn’t apply to you so #1 is irrelevant. You’re demisexual, you’re not unhappy with him as your sole sex partner, so #1 is not helping you at all.

    “2. It’s what he’s done in the past (had more than 1 sexual partner at a time)”
    If by this he means a threesome, he means MMF. (For FFM he’d get the second woman himself). This is a field where I have had too much experience, and in all of it the kinder partner was being exploited by the other and none of it was good.
    If he means “more than 1 but not at the same time” then my answer is the same as for #1

  67. “He’s a bit…cynical about the idea of demisexuality. Not that he doesn’t think it exists, but that I’m one. He thinks it’s a “blockade” I procured from the abuse, and therefore something to potentially work through.”
    But demisexuality is not a disorder. Whether you call it sexually monogamous (which even today is still common) or something else, it’s healthy and normal per se. There’s nothing to be cured.

  68. Re: Demisexuality
    He doesn’t think it’s a “disorder” per se…he just doesn’t really get it. In his point of view, I’m an attractive female and can get a new partner anytime I’d want, which is what he’d do in my situation. He believed I was sacrificing my potential sexual satisfaction by not having more partners. He now understands enough that this is not the case. So it’s all good.

    Re: Numbered Points
    He just felt poorly knowing I’d only had him, especially as he doesn’t “slut shame” or particularly care how many partners his past girlfriends have had.

    While he’d like to do a threesome of either kind, he knows I wouldn’t be a part of it. He’s completely free to partake in one though…I certainly wouldn’t mind. It’s more of #1.

    I appreciate everyone’s concern, but there’s really nothing to worry about.

  77. You learned to speak English in London, Sydney, USA, Central America, and an African country… I can’t quite pick it…

  78. Actually it could be the Caribbean rather than Africa. I’ve got it all worked out now. You hopped from Sydney to Mexico City to Jamaica to USA to London, adding to your English as you went. Am I right hoss?

  84. You have a tongue as well as mandibles? Wot? I thought a mandible is a kind of tongue. Holy cow Da’ Troll must be a handful for the Mum and vice-versa in the oral department. What ya got in da other department den? 🙂 Anything spectacular like?

  86. I understand. I don’t tell either. We don’t wan’ da Sapiens to feel inadequate now, do we, even though I’m one o’ dem?

  88. I dunno if you’re aware, hoss, that your fate is in the hands of the humie tarn? You have not much more control over your destiny than does a passenger whose life is in the hands of the pilot. Sorry hoss, but it’s true. You were created out of the mind of a conspiracy theorist and now your at the mercy of another who could leave you to perish without a second thought.

  93. bipedal roaches are humans, right? Mow down the bad ones for me, Pick. You won’t hear any complaints from me pal.

  97. LOL do you really keep playing ’til these unholy hours over there, tarn? You’re just a typical single-minded IntJ, you are!

  101. Heh heh tarn will cane me tomorrow for getting too uppity. Yeah, I’m prepared to take the flack. Now my challenged young cuzzie is playing Stevie Ray Vaughan numbers on his guitar the brilliant young buggar. So,it’s good night from me and good night from him.

    Cill out

  102. Fair enough, Sophia. I’ll stop worrying. 🙂

    “I know I’m bisexual because I’m physically aroused by naked men and women. The difference is that even though my body is aroused, I have no further desire to actually have sex with that person.”

    I’m not physically aroused by either naked men or women, usually….unless I’m actually being arroused (WITH them). I don’t think that makes me asexual. And I’m definitely not bi (I have been in a position to try that one out…and, no, definitely not bi).

    I’ve read a study (can’t remember where) and they put some electrodes on females and males, and the males who were straight were stimulated by naked female images, but the females were just as likely (or unlikely) to be stimulated by images of naked females as males.

  104. @Cill
    Mein Gott, man…What have you done to my comments section?! 😉

    @Liz
    Thanks. I’m probably not explaining my lover’s train of thought very well, so it sounds weird. He’s exceptionally extroverted, and has an external locus of identity, so to him having many acquaintances, friends, and lovers validates him. I’m the opposite…introverted and an internal locus. I validate myself for the most part.

    Our differences are just in the fact that he was concerned I was “missing out” on the pleasures/validation he places on having others tell him he’s awesome. Whereas I know I’m awesome, whether people tell me so or not. 😉 😀

    Huh. If you’re not bi, I can definitely understand not being aroused by naked women. But you don’t…experience…anything when seeing a picture or video of a naked man? Even if he’s a physical type you find attractive? For example, overly muscular pretty boys turn me off, probably because they remind me of the jocks who bullied me in school. But a larger guy, with a more “relaxed” body?
    Yes, please. They look much…safer.

  105. Women are different, sexually, from men. Millenia of evolution have made us that way, it doesn’t change as soon as technology offers us an alternative to spending all of our reproductive years pregnant.
    DIfferences include:
    -It’s very common for a woman to have fantasies she doesn’t want to actually carry out in reality. That’s NORMAL.

    -It’s actually highly unusual for a woman to desire a lot of casual sex with multiple partners.

    I find the current social paradigm which seems to want to put special labels on normal behaviors and push girls into exploring their “sexual identity” at younger and younger ages dangerous. I think it feeds the crazy. Has it ever occured to you that perhaps what you label as your “demisexuality” is part of what makes you comparatively healthy? By contrast, those who DO act out in the “sexually free” manner our society currently supports all seem to turn into crazy women who all seem to feel they have been used?

  106. Heh, we posted at the same time and I didn’t notice your response above:

    “Huh. If you’re not bi, I can definitely understand not being aroused by naked women. But you don’t…experience…anything when seeing a picture or video of a naked man? Even if he’s a physical type you find attractive? For example, overly muscular pretty boys turn me off, probably because they remind me of the jocks who bullied me in school. But a larger guy, with a more “relaxed” body?
    Yes, please. They look much…safer.”

    I can look at a naked man or woman and appreciate their beauty (assuming they are nice to look at). I guess certain photos would invoke more of a response than others. But, in short…not really, no. I’m not a visually stimulated person.

  107. I should add, I have been pretty darn far with a woman before. Third base far. I really don’t think you know, until you’re there.

  108. Lol, that video is so weird…Funny, but weird. I wonder if most women really don’t like the way vaginas look? I thought that was something you grew out of when you got older and puberty wasn’t messing with your mental body image anymore…So confused!

  109. The video was a little overdone, for dramatic effect…but funny. 🙂
    I don’t think vaginas are inherently ugly (necessarily, anyway…a lot of them are, a lot of penises are ugly to…I’m a nurse remember, I’ve seen a lot of each).

  110. Yeah, my first kiss was with another girl, and we did some light petting, but that was it. It felt nice, not aggressive like what I was used to, but I was still very afraid of sex so we backed off. K was a good person, she knew I was going through something so she didn’t push anything.

    Hmm. I guess it’s just that I’m very visually oriented. Like, I enjoy reading erotica but I prefer porn or magazines/photos by far. I think it turns on my lover to know all he has to do is be sitting on my couch naked and he’s pretty much guaranteed sex, lol.

    Totally agree about the fantasies thing. Some shady parts of the internet try to say that since some women have a “rape fantasy” they actually want to be raped. That’s ridiculous…what happens in your head is different than what happens in reality. I have a fantasy about being with 3 men at once. Doesn’t mean I really want to do it, same as my lover has a threesome fantasy involving another man…it doesn’t mean he truly wants to do that.

    I have been doing some research and introspection as of late into amounts/types of sex that people had, and it really appears that a lot of it occurred in the confines of rigid relationships…husband and wife, husband and concubine, even some wives who had dalliances with eunuchs. But this constant “get laid with someone different every week/month” thing? Yeah…didn’t really happen back then. It’s only recently that you could (hypothetically) be having spectacular swinging-from-a-chandelier sex that *wasn’t* with a steady partner of some kind. But nowadays both sexes are shamed for being “prudish” if they are virgins or only have 1 partner. In college I lied and said I had 4, just to get some girls off my back.

    I know the odd saying is “divide a man’s stated number by 3, times a woman’s stated number by 3” to get their true sexual history, but…maybe this isn’t real at all. Could we be seeing both males and females giving more extensive (and false) sexual histories to keep up with what they think society says they should have?

  111. I haven’t seen any vaginas up close like you have besides my own (which I think is very lovely), and only a few penises but I’ve yet to see any I don’t find at least somewhat attractive in the many videos/pictures I’ve viewed.

  112. “But nowadays both sexes are shamed for being “prudish” if they are virgins or only have 1 partner. In college I lied and said I had 4, just to get some girls off my back.”

    I lied, too, and I’m a little over a decade older than you…my senior year of high school I was a virgin and said I had two. Virgin shaming, even for girls, started a while ago.

  113. …and it has gotten progressively worse.

    I have a friend who had a highschool aged daughter who quit the volley ball team because she was tired of being pressured into having lesbian sex. It’s part of the new vogue…one must go “both ways” now to be truly “sexually free”. That’s probably why I’m a little sensitive with these matters. I think a lot of girls are pushed, socially, into doing things they don’t want to do. THey convince themselves that it doesn’t matter and they’re just “sexually free”. It’s a point of pride for them, but chips away at their psyche over time. They claim they want it casual but their biology doesn’t agree, subliminally. So, they turn into nutters.

  116. Oh, please. 😛

    Liz and I are just having a conversation about various sexual matters. Should somebody else read it and find it hot, that’s up to them. If I wanted to be deliberately cruel like those women, I’d do a *much* better job.

    After all, I write erotica for my lover to read at work…

  118. Just added some more of my ‘art’work to my frontpage. Complete with sad-sunflower, which Moe insists on. Waddayereckon? Modern art, or wot?

  119. Liz, it’s from the original UK series ‘Coupling’. (Don’t watch the carp murikan remake which flopped – not being very funny and all). Very funny series, though of course ‘Jeff’ is the funniest.

    Here he has dug himself into a typical Jeff position and has ‘got the girl’…almost. But he’s desperately trying to tell the truth / clear up the misunderstanding…the problem? well, that’s revealed at the end of the clip

  120. @Liz
    Well, since I don’t usually wear clothes when I’m at home…yes.

    @Spawny
    Your artwork is fantastic, sir. How the Metropolitan Museum of Art isn’t at your door with wads of cash this very moment is beyond me. 😉

  121. “After all, I write erotica for my lover to read at work…”

    no man could be so cruel…you lack empathy, I hope he doesn’t lack baggy trousers. Or a handy cushion.

  124. “How the Metropolitan Museum of Art isn’t at your door with wads of cash this very moment is beyond me. ;)”

    I know *blush*. I must share the praise with my model, who has movie star good looks. I selected the image because he’s pointing ‘links’ get it? But in the improved version he’s even pointing at my trademark sad sunflower. What a pro.

  125. Come now, Spawny…if the torture is requested, can it truly be called such? 😉

    And yes, the site still works well for my phone…despite your artistic revels.

  128. I just looked it up on Netflix, Swithy! Instant play.

    I’m almost afraid to watch this. It’s too good and I see hours and hours of my life passing by watching. But at least they’ll be pleasant hours.

    🙂

  129. Children’s Books You Won’t Be Seeing Soon
    —————————————–
    “You Were an Accident”
    “Strangers Have the Best Candy”
    “The Little Sissy Who Snitched”
    “Some Kittens Can Fly!”
    “Getting More Chocolate on Your Face”
    “Where Would You Like to Be Buried?”
    “Kathy Was So Bad Her Mom Stopped Loving Her”
    “The Attention Deficit Disorder Association’s Book of Wild Animals of North Amer— Hey! Let’s Go Ride Our Bikes!”
    “All Dogs Go to Hell”
    “The Kids’ Guide to Hitchhiking”
    “You Are Different and That’s Bad”
    “Dad’s New Wife Timothy”
    “Pop! Goes the Hamster….and Other Great Microwave Games”
    “Testing Homemade Parachutes Using Only Your Household Pets”
    “The Hardy Boys, the Barbie Twins, and the Vice Squad”
    “Babar Meets the Taxidermist”
    “Curious George and the High-Voltage Fence”
    “The Boy Who Died from Eating All His Vegetables”
    “The Pop-up Book of Human Anatomy”
    “Things Rich Kids Have, But You Never Will”
    “The Care Bears Maul Some Campers and Are Shot Dead”
    “How to Become the Dominant Military Power in Your Elementary School”
    “Controlling the Playground: Respect through Fear”
    “When Mommy and Daddy Don’t Know the Answer, They Say God Did It”
    “Garfield Gets Feline Leukaemia”
    “What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?”
    “Why Can’t Mr. Fork and Ms. Electrical Outlet Be Friends?”
    “Bi-Curious George”
    “Daddy Drinks Because You Cry”

  130. My favourite series of series for a fair number of years. It really is that good. Jeff is…epic. He wasn’t meant to be, the actor made him so. “I have the keys to the gates of heaven, but I’ve got too many legs”. “I don’t keep one [a self abuse log] either”. The writer, Steven Moffat, went on to write Doctor Who, he revived it basically. I may re-visit the series, but I know much of it by heart times, curse my memory for such things. Though it does mean I can often call up clips from series that fit the current subject..ish. That’s one of the reasons people love me…

    more jokes on my links page, aeronernautical themed.

  133. … and for October there’s the sunflower one. Apes.
    “I flipped the picture so that the guy is pointing left”
    The old one of the apes?

  135. I haven’t blamed incels for anything. The only suggestion I’ve made is to drop the hate, because it hurts the guy. For one thing, women and girls are going to run away from the anger.

    This is the feminist time machine argument, a derivative of the just world fallacy. Women already hated these men before they became angry at women. Thus, their anger isn’t driving them away. At least with their anger these men aren’t fooling themselves.

  136. So being pissed helps in what way then?

    Best go and find some better way of life that isn’t based around wtf feminists think. Who gives a shit about that? Can’t make them happy, so why bother trying?

    Being pissed isn’t going to help you find a better way of life – that was my real point.

  137. Spawny,
    BP isn’t necessarily pissed at all women ever…as I had to explain to another commenter (as to why I’d bother being there), BP and his regular readers aren’t misogynistic or sexist. But he does have a point that some women make false accusations of “harassment” in the workplace against men who are trying to GTOW or are not 100% socially adept. He has stories of it happening to him. I can see where generalizations may help him and men like him to avoid trouble that they never asked for.

    It could be due to our interactions being purely digital, and therefore non-threatening, but I’ve never encountered anger from BP’s blog space. Other than when moronic White Nationalists show up…but they annoy everyone.

  139. Now that that which was distracting me is over…No clues…but here we go

    To be honest I don’t know that I have any advice to offer his guys.

    To be even more honest, I don’t know that I’m not in the same boat as them.

    I started gaining confidence in all areas in my mid twenties by…doing things. Learning that I was better than I thought at new stuff.

    But honestly? I think things are worse for guys now. Toxic entitlement seems rife. Crazy rules over quotas mean genuinely less capable people can get promoted over you. Which was always the case to a degree…right face, right name, meshed with the right boss…but it’s worse now.

    I’m hoping for a hard reset followed by a return to advancement through merit. All the current bullshit is stuff that will fall away as a ridiculous folly that cannot be afforded in lean times.

    Once the bullshit is put aside, I believe in men.

    At the end of the day, I believe in men.

  140. Can I recommend the latter half of this post?

    http://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2014/11/07/mgtow-and-the-mrm/

    BP by all means cut n paste what you want from it, I’m not shilling my site. Take what you will.

    The opposite of love of women (men’s natural state) isn’t hatred of women. It’s indifference toward women. Listen to what JtO says about the assumptions being made about men’s ongoing attitudes and actions. Does he make sense to you?

    And I know NAWALT, but they aren’t due any benefit of the doubt either. Judge them by their actions. I consider Tarn a true friend, but I know some others. Another is a visitor here.

    Find some friends, form your own brotherhood and go your own way. Do what you want to do.

    Hopefully you find some honourable women to share the ride, maybe you don’t. Best make sure that your priority is You and your true friends.

    I believe in men.

  141. Just in case, a reminder that first comments on my blog always get hung up until released. I’m on UK time, so delays in releasing first comments over my night are not snubs.

  144. Anonymous Conservative’s theory that such people are brain damaged is becoming ever more persuasive. Over on VD’s blog he predicted that Lena would fall sick when all her paedophile bullshit was called out…and she did, the next day iirc.

  147. So being pissed helps in what way then?

    Remember the original quote I responded to, namely that an angry man is “scaring women away”. The problem with this is (as I explain in my Feminist Time Machine link) that no man starts out hating/being angry at women. It only comes later so whether a man hates women and/or is angry at women. Thus, “being angry at women/hating women” does not scare women away, at least not anymore than not hating them does.

    In other words, it may or may not help, but it certainly doesn’t hurt.

    Best go and find some better way of life that isn’t based around wtf feminists think. Who gives a shit about that? Can’t make them happy, so why bother trying?

    I do because I want to avoid prison, and I want civilization to survive. I’m not trying to make feminists/women happy. That’s an impossible task. I’m trying to save civilization from them and stop their attempts at destroying my freedom and career.

  148. BP isn’t necessarily pissed at all women ever…as I had to explain to another commenter (as to why I’d bother being there), BP and his regular readers aren’t misogynistic or sexist.

    True, but I will defend the concept of hating women/being angry at women to a certain point. That’s because it’s tied up with “you’re angry at women/hate women because you can’t get laid.” That’s impossible as a matter of logic and reality since no man started out hating women/being angry at women. Since a man has trouble with women before he gets angry at them/hates them, then it’s impossible for his hate/anger to “scare women away”. Giving up the hate/anger will not get a man laid.

    And this is before bringing up the whole issue of women who stay with abusive men, which just proves my point even more.

  149. Yes, I understand what you’re saying. Feminists say “you are angry at women, this scares them, that’s why you have no luck getting a girlfriend” without acknowledging that the anger had to actually come from somewhere. Not many people just wake up one day and say “I think I’ll be mad at Group X today”.

    But so far I personally haven’t encountered any hostility at your place, even though everyone there knows I have a vulva instead of a penis. It’s entirely possible that everyone is really pissed at me…but then I must be blind, ’cause I don’t see it. This was the other point I was making.

    As for men and women who stay in abusive relationships, I think it has a lot to do with Stockholm syndrome, incredibly low self esteem, and the feeling that being alone is worse than being hurt.

  150. I’ve never said that anger wasn’t justified. That is a completely separate issue to whether it’s useful.

    “I do because I want to avoid prison, and I want civilization to survive. I’m not trying to make feminists/women happy. That’s an impossible task. I’m trying to save civilization from them and stop their attempts at destroying my freedom and career.”

    Cool. Without any irony whatsoever, I wish you luck, Really.

  151. “Remember the original quote I responded to, namely that an angry man is “scaring women away”. The problem with this is (as I explain in my Feminist Time Machine link) that no man starts out hating/being angry at women. It only comes later so whether a man hates women and/or is angry at women. Thus, “being angry at women/hating women” does not scare women away, at least not anymore than not hating them does.”

    False dichotomy. No one “starts out” hating or being angry at anyone. We’re all a blank slate when we start out. The fact that a person has a bad experience before they have vitrio doesn’t indicate that vitriol isn’t counterproductive.

    I remember riding my bike with my first son. He was about three, with training wheels…tiny little guy. We entered a community with a public access road and some complete jackass told us it was private property and ordered us out. He just didn’t like seeing children on the public sidewalk in his community. There was a time, I’m sure, when he was a nice little boy riding his bike on the sidewalk but something happened that eventually, eighty plus years later turned him into the sour jackass he ended up as. I’m sure he felt he had his reasons. ANd that attitude just spreads the toxicity….it was probably people acting just like him who turned him that way.

    Everyone thinks they have their own reasons for acting like a turd (true of both genders).

  152. I think there was a slight misunderstanding about my comment about anger. I:

    1) did not mean to imply that anger was not justified. Anger might well be justified.
    2) anger might, or might not, be useful to you. If it’s not useful to you, dump it. Most likely you are the person most hurt by it.
    .
    .
    .
    3) as a separate issue. IF you want to find a girly, being perpetually pissed off will not help you. IF you are interested.

    But the conversation has been really quite reasonable, so that is cool in itself. All I’ve been saying is that you should put your self interest first and that your intellect is much better at doing that than your emotions. I like BP’s goals.

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