Showing Support vs Stealing the Show

Hello everyone.

I’ve been thinking about the role of women in the manosphere…if there is one at all. It was just recently that I saw some of my stats had mgtowhq as the referrer. Curious, I went to check it out.

What I found was that someone had copy/pasted a post from a blog I used to frequent, that of Erudite Knight. In it, he mentions both myself and JudgyBitch (a married, pseudo-traditionalist woman who blogs and has an extremely large following in the manosphere, including a presence at AVfM). While I don’t see eye to eye with some of what she writes, there is no doubt that she is a well-known and most assuredly female voice. Here’s what EK had to say in his aforementioned post, with commentary by me in bold;

What is a painful irony is the prevalence and success of women in the Manosphere…
I agree with this. For example, if there were 100 male and 20 female bloggers/youtubers in the manosphere, I see little reason for the 20 women to have more views, higher rankings, or greater publicity than the men. Men talking openly about male issues is a fantastic thing, and shouldn’t be overshadowed by FeMRAs or female MGTOW supporters, no matter how helpful.

For example, I actually started blogging with a handful of guys at nearly the same time along with Judgy Bitch (yes the ‘great and lauded’ JB) and Tarnished Sophia, by virtue of being women they have had much more success. Nearly every guy languishes in obscurity but these ‘novel’ females get endless praise, quite frankly I roll my eyes every time I see a jb link or a reference of that ‘women are waking up’ and its talking about jb or some other female-run site. Look at judgy bitch, her stuff is not ANY different than anyone else, and actually there are obscure blogs which much better stuff, yet she has TONS of success.
Also true. JB started blogging in October 2012 and has 4,255 followers…quite an impressive feat. EK started in December 2012 and as of today has 141 followers. I’m bringing up the rear in how long my blog has been around…I started in April 2013 and have 287 followers, only 146 more than Knight does. Is my blog “much more successful” than his own? Doesn’t seem so to me, but that’s my opinion. My blog is just my thoughts on society put out into the digital ether, not a tool for winning Teh Interwebz Popularity Contest.

Consider the complete lunacy of a married older women presuming to give advice or understand the plight of young disenfranchised males? Or how about a lesser known but similar situation of ‘tarnished sophia’ a girl who’s claim to fame is that she thinks she is a guy trapped in a girls body…what the fuck is this idiocy doing in the manosphere where it is about guys learning how to better themselves?
I can’t really say anything about JB’s stuff since I haven’t read her blog for over 6 months, but I can honestly say that gender dysphoria is not my claim to fame. If I have one at all, it’s as a blatant MGTOW supporter or maybe as an egalitarian writer. Now, do I have a few posts about my g.d.? Yes, because it impacts my life on a daily basis and gives me a unique (and sometimes difficult to accept) perspective on male-female relations. Then again, I also have a number of posts about religion…it’d be just as easy to say my “claim to fame” is that I’m Wiccan.

I actually have some bad blood with both of them so I am not scared to criticize them, without going into a bitch fest suffice it to say girls being girls and the betrayals, slights and lies that come with that fact are to be expected; and suffice it to say women blogging about men issues is a blight most don’t seem to get.
I’ve no idea what bad blood EK has with JB, but I know that ours is due to a joke a commenter of mine made that EK took offense to. When I didn’t let his response through because it violated my Comments Policy, he felt that I betrayed him, even though I removed the offending joke and offered to help him pen a response that would stick on topic without becoming a personal attack on the other person. Thus, our blogging friendship came to an end for the most part. I did comment on a few more of his posts, but was largely ignored (as is his right).

This is also a perfect microcosm of women’s hypergamy instinct at play, I was ‘their level’ at the time we all started (including the other males like gregarious wolf, odin’s lounge etc) so they ‘hung out’ with us, but when their value started to leave our’s behind…they moved on.
Again, I have no clue what JB’s initial numbers were, but can’t recall a single time I saw her on any of the manosphere blogs I frequented, including EK’s own. However, if he says that they hung out online and were at the same basic level, I’ve no reason to doubt him. Personally, I didn’t “move on” because of increased value…I did so because his posts started to mention supposed inherent inferiorities of black ethnic groups, which I do not believe in and find to be racist. This, combined with the cold shoulder treatment I’d been getting for weeks, was the catalyst to my departure from EK’s blog alone. I still read Odin’s Lounge, still commented on M3’s blog as well as Stoner’s and GNL’s, still visit AVfM…(I was never at Gregarious Wolf’s to begin with, so maybe that’s where EK knew JB from?).
*********

This (minus my commentary, of course) is what was published and commented on at mgtowhq, which is all well and good. However, my initial response to EK from months ago was not, which was;
EK, I never claimed to be part of the manosphere. I talk about how things should be more equal between the sexes, and a lot of my posts do revolve around how men in Western society get a bad rap or have laws that are double standards, but I never give out Red Pill advice. Mine is an egalitarian blog, not an MRM one.

If you see someone talking about my blog as a manosphere one, that’s up to them, not me. Maybe I’m on the very outermost fringes since egalitarian views overlap with manosphere ones, but I’m hardly on a JB, Dr. Helen, or SSM level. Oh, and as only 5 of my 88 posts are specifically about my gender dysphoria, I hardly think that’s my “claim to fame”.

Okay, so what’s the point of bringing all this up? Well, I know there are some very intelligent and honest men who comment here, and I want to hear your opinions. I already know what some of you will say…others, no idea. But if you would be so kind as to give your thoughts on what I write here, it’d be much appreciated.

1. Do you consider my blog to be part of the manosphere? I never have, but if it is thought of that way then perhaps I have different responsibilities.

2. Should women (whether fully female or just female-bodied) have a voice in the manosphere? If yes, what steps can they take to make sure their male counterparts get just as much (or more)attention? If not, then what media outlet can we use to show our support for boys and men, or speak out against the corruption of a male-disposable system?

3. Do manosphere men want women to be empathetic to their plights? On one hand, it would seem so because there is constant (justified) talk of how the majority of women don’t care about men and this is obviously harmful/painful. But then some say that female sympathy and aid is not wanted or needed, and is in fact patronizing. Which one do you believe?

4. How should the manosphere handle the presence of Female-to-Male transsexuals, gender dysphoric “women”, or others who identify as men but are not? Are they seen as RadFems see Male-to-Female transsexuals, namely spies or living insults to those born into the ‘correct’ sex? Or can they have a voice, provided it takes into account the differences between cis and trans life (as in acknowledging that male-bodied men have it significantly harder)?

These are honest questions, and I’m looking for equally honest answers. Don’t comment with what you think I want to hear…give me your real opinion. There’s no pedestalization of women here, myself definitely included. I want to acknowledge the fact that my body type/sex gives me advantages that men don’t have…Even though I don’t desire or accept help based on my sex, I live with the truth that it is nearly always available. Because of this, in some ways it doesn’t matter how masculine-oriented my brain is since society still views me as female and therefore constantly victimized/in need of help. Until we can reach true equality, it will always be thus. Hence the reason I blog about the difficulties boys and men face. But if it turns out I need to do so in a different way, then it shall be done.

If you have advice or thoughts about how to change or improve this blog, now is the time to say so.

Thanks,
-Tarnished

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94 thoughts on “Showing Support vs Stealing the Show

  1. I know you asked men to comment, but I feel compelled to comment on some stuff (not the questions themselves). I think Judgybitch has a sense of humor and an ability and willingness to troll her enemies, making them angry and upset. Both of those are talents, which neither you, me, or EK have (or maybe you both just don’t wanna use them). Those things generate clicks and popularity. People like a funny, insolent antifeminist who won’t back down. JB might have some added popularity cuz she’s female, but I doubt femaleness alone would create such popularity. There are female bloggers who don’t have much popularity either, and the reason is probably simple – the blog is not exciting enough.

  2. 1. Do you consider my blog to be part of the manosphere?

    I don’t. I just find you a nice person to speak with.

    2. Should women (whether fully female or just female-bodied) have a voice in the manosphere?

    There is no “manosphere.” There are people that share common interests and goals, some of them, for men’s issues, and many of them are men. If I’m working a project, I have no problem in asking for, or receiving help from whomever wants to offer, but then again, I’m not running an organisation. Chances if I were, I would limit women to a very small number, and keep their reach limited. Reason? Women tend to take things over. Look at The Good Men Project. It was started for and by men, and is not run for and by women that want to pretend that they listen to men. This whole kerfuffle around Judgy Bitch? I find it meaningless. She’s loud and out there. As communications person, that’s her job. If she’s putting out the message that men’s right are worthy of addressing, and promotes the means to help, I congratulate her on her success.

    If yes, what steps can they take to make sure their male counterparts get just as much (or more)attention?

    Simple: just be part of the team instead of glory-seeking.

    If not, then what media outlet can we use to show our support for boys and men, or speak out against the corruption of a male-disposable system?

    All channels, but especially your own channels. Here’s my observation. Karen Straughan has done more for the movement than a dozen men put together, by just doing her thing. She gets her fame, and adulation, but she doesn’t try to take over. Allison Tieman, another favourite of mine is the same. She participates, but doesn’t take over.

    Women, excel at networking, much more so than most men. I see no reason why you cannot bring that influence to bear. If you have an advantage, and believe in the cause, share it.

    Of note: while women get more attention upfront, those that I return to are mainly men. I like Paul Elam, and Sage Gerrard, is making proud and an number of other YouTubers and writers. I really enjoy reading Eldrich’s work. Most of the people who influence me, in this movement are men for a simple reason. No matter how much you believe in men’s rights, there is a depth of understanding that can only be had on the matter by being men. Then again, outside perspectives are equally important.

    3. Do manosphere men want women to be empathetic to their plights? On one hand, it would seem so because there is constant (justified) talk of how the majority of women don’t care about men and this is obviously harmful/painful. But then some say that female sympathy and aid is not wanted or needed, and is in fact patronizing. Which one do you believe?

    Case-per-case basis. Everyone wants everyone else to be empathetic. Empathetic does not mean fawning, or butt-kissing.

    4. How should the manosphere handle the presence of Female-to-Male transsexuals, gender dysphoric “women”, or others who identify as men but are not? Are they seen as RadFems see Male-to-Female transsexuals, namely spies or living insults to those born into the ‘correct’ sex? Or can they have a voice, provided it takes into account the differences between cis and trans life (as in acknowledging that male-bodied men have it significantly harder)?

    The question is absurd, bordering on angsty. First, I am working to create a better world. I specialize in men’s issues, it doesn’t mean that I exclude every variation other than white, heterosexual cis-gendered, left-handed people. The question is not “Who are you” but “What do you do?” Are you going my way, or not? If so, great! If not, I’m going my own. Let us leave identity politics to the fools and just focus on getting the job done. One dose of Vasalgel is worth more to me than any amount the hand-wringing. One persuasive person that convinces another to change their ways is worth more than any confession of privilege.

    Do they have a voice? Like every other human on earth: yes–their own.

    These are honest questions, and I’m looking for equally honest answers. I want to acknowledge the fact that my body type/sex gives me advantages that men don’t have…

    You want honest? Here’s honest: don’t do the mea-culpa-I-am-privileged nonsense, it’s kind of gross. That’s for Feminists and Social Justice Warriors. You have some advantages, and some disadvantages. We all do. Want to lend your advantages to the cause of human decency and fairness? Then do so. But you’re more than your body. You are also the sum-total of your skills and knowledge. That, I would think, is far more important.

    I do not view you, or women as victimized or in need of help unless I see them being victimized or in need of help.

    If you have advice or thoughts about how to change or improve this blog, now is the time to say so.

    Make your entire blog centered on collecting money for me. And add at least an article a day, in praise of me.

    Sorry, if this is somewhat inchoate, I whipped it out in a hurry.

  3. Oh, no Emma…you are most definitely welcome to comment too.

    I’ll agree with your synopsis of JB. I could do what she does, but it wouldn’t be *me*. I much prefer to listen to what my detractors say, see if they have made any good points, and figure out if there’s a way to meet in the middle. I am not so naive as to think I can be friends with everyone…but my natural personality is to be friendly anyway.

    JB is a bit too snarky for my own taste, but you are correct that it makes her material highly “clickable” and other people appreciate that kind of humor.

  4. Wow, thank you for this, Francis. I’m at work now and thus only skimmed through it, but what I read was great. Better response later, and I’ll get started on the Francis-Needs-More-Funds donations right away. 😉

  5. I just came back and re-read what I’ve written. I’m dead tired, both mentally and physically and don’t even know if I made sense. Let me know if there’s anything I need to clarify.

  6. 1. Do you consider my blog to be part of the manosphere?

    No.

    2. Should women (whether fully female or just female-bodied) have a voice in the manosphere? If yes, what steps can they take to make sure their male counterparts get just as much (or more)attention? If not, then what media outlet can we use to show our support for boys and men, or speak out against the corruption of a male-disposable system?

    Speak your piece, be honest and verifiable, and your audience will find you.

    3. Do manosphere men want women to be empathetic to their plights? On one hand, it would seem so because there is constant (justified) talk of how the majority of women don’t care about men and this is obviously harmful/painful. But then some say that female sympathy and aid is not wanted or needed, and is in fact patronizing. Which one do you believe?

    I believe the former more than the latter. Rejecting the assistance of allied females is but sour grapes and serious butt hurt.

    4. How should the manosphere handle the presence of Female-to-Male transsexuals, gender dysphoric “women”, or others who identify as men but are not? Are they seen as RadFems see Male-to-Female transsexuals, namely spies or living insults to those born into the ‘correct’ sex? Or can they have a voice, provided it takes into account the differences between cis and trans life (as in acknowledging that male-bodied men have it significantly harder)?

    From what I’ve read in the manosphere, alternate sexualities (including dysphorics), gays and transsexuals are not accepted. They are seen as a tainted other, inferior, and to be disdained if not outright abused. Too many of them reek of religious fundamentalism and a desire to be seen as superior.

    And as for EK rejecting you, he fits this last. Like his likely heroine Ayn Rand, you disappointed Your Leader and can never be forgiven for the ultimate sin of not allowing Your Leader to do your thinking for you. You became Different, a tainted other, and as such must be deemed inferior, and you will be disdained and could be subject to abuse.

  7. without getting involved in the tift between you and EK–he does have one spectacular point–Most MRA’s are one blowjob away from not being MRA’s and the prevalence of feMRA’s proves this.

    I don’ trust or like them one bit at all.

    Judgy Bitch is basically a tradcon and really condescending.

    Typhone Blue has basically repackaged radfem for men.

    Girl Writes What is by far the sharpest of the bunch and she has basically admitted that she has taken points by much smarter men like Barbarosaaaa and Stardusk, simplified them and sanded some of the rough edges off.

    I dislike the man-0-sphere. It has basically devolved into a dick measuring contest and a place to shit all over low status men. Tell me how that’s different than a bunch of male feminists.

    Oh, yeah, I had to listen to this dickhead guy at work today. He was bragging what a pussyhound he is. He wouldn’t shut up and implied that I was a homosexual because I wasn’t bragging. I was getting ready to punch him. Strangely enough, I even thought this is one situation where I actually wished I was a married guy. When all the Dudebroes brag how alpha they are, I can just be all antisocial and say I ain’t saying shit. I won’t disrespect my wife so you losers get a cheap story. Haha, imagine that, the only benefit I see to marriage is it would take away the pressure to be a “playa.”

  8. Could some one tell me what the people posting on the manosphere are REALLY
    after? Does it vary, with each individual? Are they trying to change humanity, “one
    egg” at a time? Are they trying to change women’s natures so they will crawl into bed
    with them? Is that really possible across the board?
    If a man really could have sex with any woman he wanted, at any time, WOULD THAT
    be the solution to ALL his problems?
    I have no fanciful dream that I can change the world, and I try to curtail my complaints
    about how nasty people can be, by seeing that human’s are just another kind of animal,
    and it’s futile to expect anything from people.
    As far as the female gender goes, it is my romantic perogotive it entertain myself
    (imagination) with songs like: “She’s So High Above Me,” “I Can’t Get Next To You
    Girl,” {And many others } by the Temptations. And the most descriptive song about
    women like “Tarnished,” titled “Wild Flower.”
    I just can’t help myself. I am an INFJ, and an Ennagram 4, unlike many incels who
    are INTJ and Ennagram 5.

  9. Okay, so what’s the point of bringing all this up? Well, I know there are some very intelligent and honest men who comment here, and I want to hear your opinions.

    Well make your mind up Tarn. Do you want the opinions of the very intelligent and honest, or mine? You need to make your mind up. In the mean time…

    I already know what some of you will say…others, no idea. But if you would be so kind as to give your thoughts on what I write here, it’d be much appreciated.

    1. Do you consider my blog to be part of the manosphere? I never have, but if it is thought of that way then perhaps I have different responsibilities.

    I suppose I do consider your blog as part of the manosphere in as much as you frequently talk about the male point of view and experience from your own (pretty unique) point of view and experiences. I’m not interested in any religion, or poetry on any site, neither do I come here to read about sexploits (do as you wish! I’m just saying that reading about them isn’t my thing either).

    My reason for coming here originally was your unique perspective. I then stayed because I valued your clarity of thought, from said unique perspective, but generally speaking too. I now consider you an on-line friend due to your loyalty and decency to men. I trust you. I believe you are exactly what you say you are. I’m sorry that that is a difficult thing at times, I would wish you an easier existence.

    But…I don’t believe that you have any responsibilities to the manosphere. Do what you do, say what you say. That those things help men and the manosphere is great. The fact you do them not from a sense of responsibility, but because you actually care is even better.

    Just keep doing what you’re doing, you have no duty just because others assign you a label. However well it might fit, or not. (I’m speaking as an MGTOW)

    2. Should women (whether fully female or just female-bodied) have a voice in the manosphere?

    Yes, but I’d prefer it wasn’t a strong one. But the problem that I see is that the voice of men needs to strengthen (this IS happening) rather than the great work of some of the (e.g.) Honey Badgers be stifled.

    In your particular case, I absolutely do see your mind, in all our correspondence, as being masculine in nature (you can use the word male if you wish). While your physical reality is female, I believe you do have a place as a male mind exposed more than most men to the realities of female life. I think that that is interesting and potentially valuable.

    I think that the manosphere is coming along nicely, I’d encourage more guys to raise their voices if they wish, or just quietly become more self-valuing (not just drones for the gynocentric society that we live in). Each man should value the contribution of each person (male and female) according to their actions towards men and the interests of men. You’re doing fine.

    There are plenty of male bodied manginas out there that I value far less than I do you. Having a dick doesn’t disqualify you from being a dick. Not having one doesn’t automatically condemn you to an entire life of ebul.

    If yes, what steps can they take to make sure their male counterparts get just as much (or more)attention? If not, then what media outlet can we use to show our support for boys and men, or speak out against the corruption of a male-disposable system?

    Society, women and men, values the existence of women more highly than men. That’s where we started. Men and good women need to stop playing along. But to ignore the current reality does us no good. We should all push in our own way for men’s rights. I’d prefer more male leaders, but as I’m not up front leading myself, I need to take care to not be over critical of those that do put themselves out there genuinely for men. Generally speaking if the words are pro-men, I don’t care as much about whether the voice is male or female, though I have a preference for men doing it.

    3. Do manosphere men want women to be empathetic to their plights? On one hand, it would seem so because there is constant (justified) talk of how the majority of women don’t care about men and this is obviously harmful/painful. But then some say that female sympathy and aid is not wanted or needed, and is in fact patronizing. Which one do you believe?

    The current problems stem from a lack of caring by women. Having said that I would encourage sympathetic women to demonstrate their words are more than easy ones or blatant lies as told by feminists*. Don’t just matronise, speak about real issues. Bring up the subject of men when in conversation with other women and manginas as well as with men you know are pro-male.

    (*If you claim feminism is for men too, I’m going to need to see the pro-male demonstrations by female feminists, the feminist lead movement for male shelters etc. For justice in charging and sentencing. Know what I mean, sweeties? Enough with the lies. Don;t care about the worthless dictionary definition, I care about what you actually do – maybe that’s a male thing 😉 ).

    4. How should the manosphere handle the presence of Female-to-Male transsexuals, gender dysphoric “women”, or others who identify as men but are not? Are they seen as RadFems see Male-to-Female transsexuals, namely spies or living insults to those born into the ‘correct’ sex? Or can they have a voice, provided it takes into account the differences between cis and trans life (as in acknowledging that male-bodied men have it significantly harder)?

    I don’t really have any interest in getting dragged into terminology that adds nothing to the discussion, but sometimes seems designed to imply faux-intellectualism by stealing words from real academic disciplines. I understand that some terms can be timesavers (I’m a techie, I live for abbreviations as timesavers), but others seem to be used to just obfuscate the discussion.

    Do I care that you’re a male mind in a female body when you speak?

    Fundamentally, no. I don’t. If I thought you were talking codswallop that opinion would not change whether you had a cod or not. So, I’d prefer we cared less about the speaker than what they say. Part of what I strongly dislike about feminism is the concept of privilege, intersectionality and the progressive stack (hope that’s the right term). Your claimed victim status should not move you up the speaking order. Where you are in the list should be down to how much you actually know about the damn subject.

    (O/T It does seem to be a female tendency to judge the words according to their feelings about the speaker. I fundamentally disagree with that, Last I saw the issue raised, it was regarding the feminist dislike of anonymity, where men tend to value what’s being said by it’s content. Guess which way I swing?)

    Having said that, you (Tarn) do bring some interesting insight into the female world for me as a male. I would hope that women might be interested in your insight into the male world too.

    So fundamentally, value each voice according to the value of what is said. Only after that should the question of who said it come in as a secondarily issue.

    e.g. Based Mom / Christina Hoff Sommers is a feminist…I could talk to her all day about all manner of subjects. Many of the manginas that claim to speak for men? I wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire.

    Have a nice day, Tarn 😉 Keep it up just as you are.

  10. “From what I’ve read in the manosphere, alternate sexualities (including dysphorics), gays and transsexuals are not accepted. They are seen as a tainted other, inferior, and to be disdained if not outright abused. Too many of them reek of religious fundamentalism and a desire to be seen as superior.”

    I disagree with this from my experiences in the manosphere (maybe I’ve been lucky?).

    I do, however, think that there’s a knee-jerk reaction from many men when they hear the Social Justice buzz words of “alternate sexualities (including dysphorics), gays and transsexuals” etc. A sort of ‘here we go…’. I don’t think that most men in the manosphere care about intersectionality and claims of minority oppression. They don’t want to play the gender and other politics games.

    I think, maybe, that you see the reaction of ‘oh no’ and ascribe it to the wrong source. It’s not dislike of the minorities, it’s dislike of the whole game of let’s obfuscate all the issues by slinging in victim politics and intersectionality when we’re really talking about basic justice for all ‘men’ however you chose to define it, because really? They’re likely most interested in equality for all and disinterested in games.

    YMMV

  11. You already know what my response will be so this is superfluous. Suffice it to say I agree with blurkel. And my mate Spawny… *again*. It’s frustrating, I keep looking for an excuse to pull that bloke to bits but nothing has come up yet. I live in hope…

    I’m sending this without having looked at any of the other comments yet.

  12. Miss attempts said:
    “If a man really could have sex with any woman he wanted, at any time, WOULD THAT
    be the solution to ALL his problems?”

    My opinion of my fellow man is less jaundiced than that.

  13. Somewhat related top this topic, maybe

    Seen this? I don’t know what the background she speaks of is. She’s moved up my watch-list since the recent AVFM happenings with her and JtO. I haven’t previously paid enough attention to her, this is changing.

  14. Cill,

    “It’s frustrating, I keep looking for an excuse to pull that bloke to bits but nothing has come up yet. I live in hope…”

    Are you more worried that you agree with me, or me with you? 😉

    Damn we seem to have a lot of shared views (with Tarn too). Francis’ comment was great too (I added him to my blog roll before having a chance to read there. That will happen tomorrow, I hope)

  15. “My opinion of my fellow man is less jaundiced than that.”

    Me too. See? me agreeing with you.

    Miss, you have a terrible opinion of men. This can’t be good for your concept of self. PLEASE let the drama go. Tarn is not a magical being. She doesn’t want a pedestal.

    But she’ll talk sense to you. I take what she says very seriously, maybe you could reflect on what she says about men?

    I am sure that my pro-male stance on things irritates you, okay? Sorry about that, but I believe that current society is toxic on the subject of masculinity. I’m here to encourage men.

    Could you leave your emotions at the door for a while and ask what it really can mean to be a man? Being pro-man is not anti-woman by the way, if it was Tarn would have booted me out of here already. I don’t hate women. Tarn would know that by now if it were true.

    Your anti-male feelings cannot be healthy for you, in particular. It’s bad enough when a woman is misandric beyond reason, but for a male bodied person? It’s really not helpful to you.

    Take it easy Miss, you have potential friends here. Whatever your physical and mental realities.

  16. The unfortunate reality is that female MRAs are the only effective weapon that the MRM has. When your world view and personal experiences can be discredited for simply possessing a y chromosome the few (but I think growing number of) pro men women out there take on a very important role because their views and observations are harder for feminists to discredit. Many guys in the manosphere or whatever realize this and celebrate women like Karen Straughan, JB, Dr. T and Dr. Christina Hoff Summers while others have been hurt so many times or are perhaps are just too bigoted to except or want women involved.

  17. stonerwithaboner: You really come across as an immature, hasn’t-dealt-with-his-shit asshole.

    What are you in for? I’m for creating a better world, and that means ending not only the battle of the sexes, but what any thinking person would be: a world that treat people for who and what they are decently.

    I’d like to think that’s too much to ask, but when I read comments like the one you’ve left, my doubts are evoked.

    Getting involved in other people’s interpersonal drama shows that you aren’t ready to sit at the big people’s table yet.

    People are people. Let them work their stuff out. Treat those around you–and that includes yourself–with decency and dignity. You aren’t part of that game, you have no say.

    I sincerely doubt that you could argue any of your points with sincerity, intellect or compassion.

    Base on your comment, I don’t take you seriously. Sacrifice your ego.

  18. “Are you more worried that you agree with me, or me with you?”
    I wrestle with that conumdrum every time I find one of us agreeing with the other, or disagreeing with whatever it is that the other disagrees with.

  19. See my point? How narcassitic, self absorbed, and self pitying most posters are!
    A whole load of posts were given yesterday, and Sophia, didn’t respond to a one!
    Did anybody consider asking if everything was O.K. with her? She could be in crisis
    now. She’s likely suffering from P.T.S.D. She underwent harrowing experiences as
    a child. I’ve know children who have been anally raped. Their sleep cycles are
    completely disrupted because they had to be watchful, and the molesters commited
    their crimes in the dark of night.
    Maybe Sophia is in the midst of emotional crisis. She’s had to bottle up and surpress
    all her experiences. I suspect she is STILL in the process of healing. The only thing
    that ever get’s “cured” is meat.
    She has such a meek and loving heart. I KNOW she doesn’t REALLY want to be a man!
    Many molested people fall prey to the “Stockholm syndrome.” They “ape” the traits of
    their abusers. It get’s imprinted onto them. It was ” MEN?” that did it to her.
    She sees herself as “Tarnished.” She’s never had a chance to see herself any other
    way.
    I may be treading on dangerous ground here, but I DID want to ask Sophia about her
    relationship with her mother. She was abused by BOTH her father AND stepfather.
    Did her mother not know it was occurring? Sophia seems to have a good relationship
    with her mother, but I wanted to know why her mother was unaware.
    Families fall into “patterns of denial,” It’s “Sophie’s Choice” (No pun intended) to
    reveal what she wants about her past, but I’d hate to see her go down the route
    that I’ve seen so many other’s go.
    From what I’ve seen of Sophia, she is a “sweet and gentle flower growing wild.”
    Self hatred, and the resentment of the female gender by posters because they have
    a difficult time getting laid, will NOT help Sophia. Perhaps, love and understanding
    would.

  20. @Francis

    If this is the first time you’re “meeting” Stoner, I can see how his comments can seem brash. But please know that he has been through a lot of crappy family stuff, some of it very similar to what I’ve lived with, and needs support more than anything else. Might I suggest taking a look at his blog? It would give more information about Stoner than a single comment does…

  21. @Stoner

    I’d never ask you to take sides between EK and I. That’s not the type of person I am.

    I’m aware of the dislike you have for the manosphere, and at least some of the reasons why. But I also know a few of the blogs you post on, the most obvious one being BP’s. Is his not technically a manosphere blog?

    I’ll agree that the idea of status (alpha/beta) is pretty prevalent in many manosphere writings, which I don’t think is necessary. Human beings are complex…a single label can’t truly hope to encompass all that they are.

    Re: The guy at your job
    I wasn’t there, so I have no clue if he was being serious or not, but was he just joking around? A lot of guys in their early 20s will casually brag about pussy, and also make suggestions about the sexuality of other guys with no lays…At my own job, we have 2 guys who claim to have had sex with over 50 different women, and they do often tease the virgin guy at work. But they are all good friends, and honestly I think H wants to be a virgin because he turns down every offer to go on a date, including my offer where I’d be paying for everything. He always just shrugs and says it’s not important to him, which I can respect.

    Maybe (again, I wasn’t there to note the voice inflections or body language) this is what the dude was doing? If not, and he was actually being an ass about it, then yeah…he’s a jerk and I would’ve let him know that a man’s value is certainly not tied to how many sexual partners he’s had.

  22. @Blurkel

    Thank you for answering my questions. You make a good point in #4: I’ve encountered this as well. But before I go into more, I want to clarify your comment…Are you saying that trans people are religious fundamentalist who wish to be superior, or their detractors?

  23. ‘Miss’

    Why do I call Tarn, ‘Tarn’?
    Well…we start with ‘Tarnished Sophia’. The obvious choice is to use ‘Sophia’, but hang on. We’re talking to a gender dysphoric, so…maybe ‘Sophia’ doesn’t make it clear that we understand that there’s an issue. hmmm.
    ‘Tarnished’? nope, don’t like the implication of the that name though I note that she uses it. Not sure that she didn’t use to use the whole name though. Maybe there is a slow change happening. maybe one day she’ll use her real name, ‘Griselda’. A name of pure poetry…(anyway O/T)
    I use ‘Tarn’ to signal that I understand that the dysphoria is an issue, but reject labeling her as being damaged goods in any way at all.
    So when you speak of “Perhaps, love and understanding would.”, that is what I’m trying to do and trying to signal. I believe that the signal was received as intended(Tarn?)

    When I first started conversing with Tarn I did (clumsily) try and understand her mind…frankly, ‘just how male is her mind?’ I didn’t wish to hurt her by treating her as a man, when she might just have a veneer of masculinity over a female core. I have always found her to respond as an analytical man would. Now I’m STEMmy and Tarn does the Wicca and poetry and art…we are not the same type of male. But if it’s a veneer, it’s a damn thick one, I can’t see past it.

    So I show Tarn the courtesy of talking to her as I would a man. Again, ‘Miss’, who is being discourteous?

    You say “[she is a] sweet and gentle flower growing wild.”. Now I agree with that. I have (I’m sure that shrewd Tarn has noticed) always encouraged her to show more of any feelings she’s feeling, be comfortable with emotions. I keep trying to open up any definition she has of what having a male mind means. Why? Why would horrible ‘misogynist’ me do such a thing? That she might relax into just being herself/himself. because there is one thing that I am certain of; that that person is a good person.

    All these attacks against Tarn that you see coming from us horrible menz? They aren’t there.

    You’re letting your feelings run riot on ‘facts’ that aren’t there *sigh*.

    Why do you think that that is a good thing?

    Chill a little ‘Miss’, join in the conversation. Let down your guard and experience a little masculine ambiance as it actually is. Nobody here is attacking Tarn, nobody here is attacking you. Relax. Join in. Let go of some of your misconceptions about what men are like. Experience a little fraternal camaradarie, you might like it.

    Tarn keeps a safe place for you to try it, here. Everyone here respects her for it.

    Brother/Sister/whichever/neither your feelings are doing you a disservice. Put them down for a while.

  24. @Random Person

    Hey, thanks for stopping back! It’s nice to hear from you again.

    In a way, I agree with you: If a man says he encounters misandry/sexism, the masses will basically claim that “Misandry Don’t Real” (as that stupid meme goes), or assert that he is trying to derail conversations about female problems (yes, because only those with XX chromosomes deal with sexist attitudes, right?). But if a woman says that men encounter it, then it gains slightly more value. In this way, FeMRAs can become strong allies to disenfranchised males.

    But one commenter on mgtowhq made a good point too: Do men want to speak through women or have their own voice listened to? Are we perpetuating misandry by having women be acknowledged as a more acceptable voice to the masses?

    This is something worth thinking about…As I see it, there is no easy answer. If men actually want things to improve, then obviously more women need to see that misandry exists. One very common complaint in regards to the manosphere is “these guys are too angry/frustrated/loud/scary”…Well, maybe that’s where feMRAs can distill the message for other women. Remember too that women have a stronger need for solidarity than men…they do not relish going “against the herd”. So if a female voice already exists saying that misandry is real and needs to be combated, then the message may sink in, rather than being dismissed.

    Food for thought.

  25. @Spawny

    Oh dear sir, you know you make a decent facsimile of an honest and intelligent man… 😉 😛

    The thing I love most about your comment is this, and I think it bears repeating for any lurkers:

    “Is encourage more guys to raise their voices if they wish, or just quietly become more self-valuing.”

    This view is precisely why I fully support MGTOW, and try to push the importance of concepts like self-esteem and increasing ones value *for oneself*. Likewise, the presence of female voices shouldn’t ever drown out male ones, but instead add to the chorus of change. If more of us work together to petition for a more equal society, we’ll get one!

  26. P.S. – I heartily agree with your opinion on anonymity. If a law was passed tomorrow that necessarily doxxed every commenter/blogger…well, I’d still blog, but I’d get rid of all my Abuse posts (I don’t want people’s pity). I might have to be more careful about what I say, as many in my area are feminists, including my boss and female coworkers. He wouldn’t fire me, but it would create a lot of tension that I don’t need, and more arguments between myself and the young women I work with.

    You should be able to either like or dislike someone’s words based on their content, not on who is saying them.

  27. Missattempts,

    I don’t see anyone here who is narcissistic or self-absorbed. I cherished everything that was said yesterday, and moderated everything as soon as I saw it.
    Don’t worry, I no longer suffer from PTSD, and few things trigger me now. For the ones that do, I’m usually capable of getting myself out of the immediate environment or using mental coping strategies for the times when I can’t. Sometimes I push my boundaries too far and end up getting hurt by flashbacks…but that’s on *me*, not anyone else.

    I didn’t respond yesterday because I worked from 9am-10pm…my store is having a ton of events to raise money for a local autism awareness group, and I was running around like a headless chicken. And I get to do it for another 7 hours today…thank goodness for shorter work hours on Sunday.

    If I’m ever in a real crisis, you’ll know because I won’t be moderating comments. If 24 hours has gone by with no activity whatsoever…then yeah, something has happened. But so long as comments are still coming through, it’s safe to assume I’m just busy.

    I will say that I *do* wish I was born male, and do so with all my heart and mind. Yes, some victims develop a Stockholm Syndrome like you say. However, I have had gender dysphoria all my life, and can distinctly recall telling my grandmothers and teachers that I was an “almost boy” and that I didn’t want to be a girl. It was very difficult in my younger years, as I went to a private Catholic school where boys wore pants and girls wore dresses…no exceptions. Girls also weren’t allowed to run, or play soccer/dodgeball, or skip rope because our skirts would fly up and it was “unladylike”. I was so glad to finally get into a public school where I could wear male clothing! /end tangent

    The point is, I have always thought of myself as a male regardless of age. While the sexual abuse lasted 7 years, it didn’t start till I hit puberty at age 10. I was gender dysphoric long before that.

    My relationship with my mother is…odd. I know she had inklings about what was going on, but as she worked at night that is generally when the abuse would occur. She wasn’t physically present for 90% of it. For the rest? Well, my stepfather pulled in a 6-figure income. I think she was willing to “forget” the fact he stood too close to me, or constantly invaded my personal space with small touches…after all, it was mostly innocent looking. For what it’s worth, she has apologized to me many times.

    I also want you to know I don’t hate myself. I wish I could have a male body, but I take care of the female one I have and am thankful that it is physically strong and sound. I’m so very thankful that I don’t suffer from the bipolar disorder, narcissistic tendencies, or alcoholism that affects my father or the lack of a spine, need for chivalry, and desire to be dependent that plagues my mother. I have cracks in my armour, this is true. But they don’t make me who I am…*I* make me who I am.

  28. Missattempts asked “Could some one tell me what the people posting on the manosphere are REALLY after? Does it vary, with each individual?”

    There is no “manosphere.” The term is simply a loose description for men talking about men’s stuff. Since that appears to be such a novel event someone had to give it a name, but it doesn’t exist as some cohesive unit. In that respect, as you say, it varies from person to person.

    I write my blog to empty my mind, and to meet with and communicate with people. I’m looking for intellectual peers to help me explore the issues from all sides to come with good ideas and clear-headed thinking. I hope to influence others to accept, promote and live by the best ideas, so that we can rectify one of society’s mess du jour: the terrible communication and empathy gap between the sexes.

  29. “The term is simply a loose description for men talking about men’s stuff. Since that appears to be such a novel event someone had to give it a name, but it doesn’t exist as some cohesive unit. In that respect, as you say, it varies from person to person.”

    Yes, completely agree. Use the label by all means, but you should understand how little it means at the end of the day.

  30. Spanwny get said:

    2. Should women (whether fully female or just female-bodied) have a voice in the manosphere?

    Yes, but I’d prefer it wasn’t a strong one. But the problem that I see is that the voice of men needs to strengthen (this IS happening) rather than the great work of some of the (e.g.) Honey Badgers be stifled.

    This is exactly right. Until now, men have only had a voice in anything that did not directly relate to men’s personal experience. It’s OK for us to talk about our doing (business, sports, science, government) but it hasn’t been, and still isn’t generally accepted that we speak to anything that revolves around addressing men’s social issues.

    Right now, to return to missattempts’s question, we are trying to get our collective head together to sort out and work out our stuff. Some have started earlier than others, and are leading the way from their point of view. Others, like me, listen a lot, talk and try to work it out. We are engaging in the sort of self-exploration that women have, collectively over the last 50 years.

    Our society currently has two big problems between the sexes. Men still empathize with women more than they do with themselves, so do not allow themselves the freedom to say “no,” and women empathize with themselves almost to the exclusion of men, and being human, don’t like to hear “no.” On the political level, men are under an a 50 year all-out assault on our persons, our dignity, our character, our work, and the legitimate power that we should have, as simple citizens in a society.

    Now, it seems as women speak for us more than we do ourselves. I agree that women should speak up, but I believe that men should speak up more.

  31. This guy was in his 40’s also a Mexican dude. Really racist, yup, allot of dudes from this culture are way more racist that the average white guy. He also voted for Obama. A bad guy all around. If he doesn’t shut up, I’ll just say, “since your a player, let me take care of your wife as you are obviously neglecting her.” It’ll probably make him really mad. Last time I said that, the guy got really mad, said he’d fight me if I ever said that again and didn’t talk to me for two weeks.

    I don’t think most would consider Mr. Black Pill part of the man-0-sphere….

    If you are hated by Chuck Rudd, Matt Forney, Amanda Marcotte, Clarence in Baltimore and Manboobz, you are doing it right…

  32. @Stoner

    I’m sorry, man. It sounds like this guy has been ragging on you for no reason…very different than my work environment. There you only have to worry about feminists, not jerks too.

    Hmm. So then is BP’s place just a part of the overall incel community?

  33. “If you are hated by Chuck Rudd, Matt Forney, Amanda Marcotte, Clarence in Baltimore and Manboobz, you are doing it right…”

    Don’t know about Chuck, don’t know him. Is Clarence in Balti the ‘Clarence’? Matt? haven’t paid enough attention. But hate from Manjaw and Manboobz would bring joy to the heart.

    Just an opinion on a mildly lubricated, chilled out Sunday evening.

  34. @Stoner

    You’re right, I shouldn’t presume the details of his sexuality. I just thought he was because I saw his blog referenced on an incel support site.

  35. I apologise to everyone. I have just told Padawan, Cill and Moe how to do strike through, bold and italic

    When they learn that they can be nested…chaos will surely rule.

    Sorry

  36. @Tarnished

    The detractors are the ones who claim superiority through their denunciations of others. It would take such an attitude to express anything other than acceptance of difference, something the detractors consider a threat. Rigid conformity and homogenized membership tend to be the standards by which the ins are separated from the outs, so that when hunting season is declared, there are no questions who is the target.

  37. @Tarnished

    “…encourage more guys to raise their voices if they wish, or just quietly become more self-valuing.”

    Too many of the vocal MGTOWs I’ve read (not a large number) don’t just expose their anger. They also express a desire to “restore what they lost”, which tends to be a status they never had – unless they were quite wealthy. They are thus already “more self-valuing” as they claim undue superiority and privilege. Anyone not them is deemed as inferior and only suited to serve the self-proclaimed elites.

    Boosting self-esteem is a tricky thing. It can lead to the explosive growth of the unrestrained ego. Then nothing gets settled without serious difficulty.

  38. “Do men want to speak through women or have their own voice listened to? Are we perpetuating misandry by having women be acknowledged as a more acceptable voice to the masses?”

    On a personal level at least, I can say that I don’t care. If you’re doing something right or supporting a noble cause than what does it matter who you are? It can also be pretty reassuring to find out that there are women who think feminists are lunatics like I do. Hell, Karen Straughan is the reason I ended up in the manosphere in the first place. I always thought that feminism seemed kinda shady but I’m not certain that I would have given her videos the time of day if she were a man. so from my perspective at least, women have always been a big part of the MRM.

    On a more practical level I’m not sure that it matters if men want to speak for themselves or not when society at large thinks that men shouldn’t be allowed to have their own opinions on gender politics. We have to the use tools that we’ve been given and unfortunately Girl Writes What and the JB have gotten more mainstream media attention in the short span of time they have been around than Paul Elam has managed in decades. Is it fair that women have become the arguably loudest voice in the MENS rights movement? Hell no! But it is what is and we have got to be pragmatic about this.

  39. “But it is what it is and we have got to be pragmatic about this.”
    *nods* Okay, I can agree with that. If women like GWW are willing to spread the initial message to the masses, and guide listeners to men like Stardusk, Bachelor Not Looking, or Sandman…Well, I think that’s a good thing.

    Re: your question about why it matters
    Some MGTOWs are extremely wary, or downright against, female voices in the manosphere because they see it as a takeover…women once again claiming something for themselves, despite it being for and generally by men. Of course, telling someone they can’t have a blog or youtube channel because you “don’t like it” doesn’t work, but if men don’t want to listen/recommend it, that’s their right.

    Then there’s guys like Richard, who left a rather…interesting…comment on my MGTOW Survey Part 3 post. Among other things, he stated that he believes I’m a spy for the “sisterhood” and am only pretending to support MGTOWs in order to find ways to dismantle it.

  40. 1. Do you consider my blog to be part of the manosphere?

    No, and my blog isn’t part of the manosphere either.

    2. Should women (whether fully female or just female-bodied) have a voice in the manosphere?

    I don’t think the manosphere should exist so this is a non-issue. If you’re really talking about the honey badgers at AVFM for example (I don’t consider AVFM to be part of the manosphere either), I’m torn on it. On the one hand, it should be men speaking up about their experiences. On the other hand, the only way they can get traction is by having women speaking up for them. This is dangerous as it can lead to the MRM being co-opted by women, but I don’t have a way to solve this. Thus, I can’t really oppose what AVFM is doing too much, especially since they have cleaned up their act in other areas.

    3. Do manosphere men want women to be empathetic to their plights?

    Putting aside that I don’t think the manosphere should exist, the biggest thing would not be empathy as such. It would be a recognition that men’s are problems are real. Of course, most women would lose their power if they did this.

    4. How should the manosphere handle the presence of Female-to-Male transsexuals, gender dysphoric “women”, or others who identify as men but are not?

    Again, putting aside that I don’t think the manosphere should exist, this could be a solution to the problem of getting the benefits of female support without being co-opted by women. Of course, the problem is that there are few women like this.

  41. I don’t think he is incel but you’d have to ask him not me…

    I suppose you could say I’m part of the incel community in the broadest sense of the term. However, the incel community has been taken over by feminists and is filled with woman worshiping manginas. It that sense I’m definitely not incel.

  42. Thanks for replying, BP.

    Just to clarify, when you say “the manosphere” shouldn’t exist, what definition are you using? I tend to think of the term as Francis does…simply a very loose grouping of blogs that discuss men’s rights/issues, preferably written by men. It doesn’t sound like that’s what your definition is though.

  43. I was using the broadest sense, as in “involuntarily celibate” and nothing else. However, if you believe the term has been co-opted, then I will not use it in regards to yourself.

  44. Perhaps it’s just the era that I’m from, or my personality type. (probably my personality
    type.) I just can’t fathom why a man wouldn’t ADORE the woman he loves and place
    her ABOVE all other “worldly” things. (Nobody should be placed above God.) The best
    song I’ve ever heard that describes it is “Bernadette” by the Four Tops. The singer
    says: “You’re the SOUL in me, and I need you to live!” Perhaps it’s just me. I study
    Personality Types, and I know it “takes all kinds.”
    Songs like: “A Girl Like You” and “How Can I Be Sure?” by the Young Rascals. I was
    raised on these songs and they reflect the time I’m from. I REALLY GRIEVE for the
    coarseness of the present era. Please don’t be offended, but do you actually believe
    that I would want anyone that I REALLY LOVED to be ANYBODY’s “Friend With Benefits?
    It took me all of two seconds, to read some of “Tarnished’s posts to see that she was a
    RARE GEM, completely deserving of appreciation, even ADULATION!
    Sure, she is only human. She has her moods, and an honurable person makes
    allowences for that. That’s what love is about. You except the ENTIRE person,
    faults and all, unless they are doing something VERY destructive to themselves and
    others.
    I wouldn’t want someone that I REALLY loved being a receptical for another person’s
    sperm. It MIGHT happen, but I wouldn’t want to know about it!
    I knew an intelligent and expressive married man, simular to Spawny. He was physically
    unattractive. He said to me, “Why should it bother me, if my wife was having sex
    behind my back, as long as she was avaible to me when I want her? There seemed
    to be a logic to this. Just like there is a logic to “working girls” who service handicapped
    people. Some might NEVER have sex otherwise. But to KNOW that someone I had
    my own unique bond with, was casually servicing another person with “FWB ” mercy
    f–k’s? NEVER! NEVER!

  45. FwB doesn’t mean “mercy fucks”, Missattempts…it literally just means you are very good friends who also feel comfortable enough together (and are attracted to each other) that you can have sex without it ruining your friendship. In my case, it isn’t even casual sex. I am also confused by some of your statements…who is being a receptacle, and who is being given sex behind someone else’s back?

    I don’t for a minute hold with the idea that either men or women have to be virgins on their wedding night, btw. If you are so upset by the concept of your current partner having sex before they met you, I think you should really consider why that is.

  46. It’s as my lover says about the idea of past jealousy “If she doesn’t care how many partners I’ve had, why should I give a damn about how many she’s had?” When I told him about that stupid “key/penis, lock/vagina” quote, he laughed out loud and said it was the absolute dumbest thing he’d heard that day…One of many reasons I love him. 🙂

  47. i laugh when men who write about men’s issues claim they aren’t part of the manosphere. they are. manosphere is not just red pill or mra or mgtow or incel. it’s all lumped in. when people use the word manosphere to refer to only 1 of those subsets, it’s willfull ignorance. it’s the kind of thing that feminists do to discredit some by equating them with others.

  48. @Zodak

    I think it has more to do with being equated to something you very much dislike, or that doesn’t help you at all. For example, a decent portion of the manosphere talks up “alpha” traits and craps on “beta” or “zeta” traits. For those who are beta/zeta, this can lead to feelings of betrayal from a group (however loosely organized) that was supposed to help you.

  49. The more inclusive the term is across a very diverse population…the less it means. I don’t see any problem with being part of the manosphere, but then I suppose I wouldn’t care if there was…and haven’t for 8-10 years.

  50. I wonder if missattempts is feeling things as Carly Simon sang about in “The Way I Always Heard It Should Be”. In other words, societal pressure for and against certain behaviors. In this case, it’s the belief that sex is reserved to married couples and avoided by the unwed.

    I ran across an interesting take on this process by a guy named Antonio Gramsci, who developed a theory called cultural hegemony in which the societal mores are impressed upon the members of the society by the elites as a means of establishing said mores. While this comes from the Marxist school of thought, it doesn’t take a lot of effort to see that religion and other major societal influences could desire such results as the means by which they maintain control and influence.

    My interest in Gramsci is in his observations of how these mores make it difficult to foment any changes in society. The efficacy of these changes don’t get taken into account, but are instead seen as “not the way things are”. Which is, by extension, assumed to be undesirable and is to be automatically and unquestioningly opposed.

    It could explain much of what happens in the world.

  51. That’s a very good point, Blurkel.

    It explains why some religions (like Christianity, which proclaims to be the “One Way”) the desire is for followers to only mix and breed with others who are loyal to the church, and thus will continue to provide attendance/tithing, keeping the power relatively contained.

  52. @Tarn

    Here’s a real world example of the cultural hegemony process at work in politics as covered by the media, examined by The Rude Pundit (language). Ignoring the political slant, he reveals how we as a society are being manipulated to make the choices desired by those spending large sums to gain even larger sums via control of the elected.

    I’m sure that it isn’t all that hard to see how this process is widely working against the bulk of humanity for the benefit of a self-selected few, and not just in politics.

    http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/11/job-well-done-media-destruction-of-vote.html

  53. Please don’t be offended, but I think the difference between (most) human beings
    and animals is that animals are completely indifferent about who they have sex with,
    but human’s ascribe more meaning to the act.
    Do you think all those wonderful love songs I wrote about are just to asserge the “guilt”
    people feel when they engage in the act? Did people “invent” the idea of “Love” to
    justify jumping into bed with just ANYONE that tickles their fancy? Is a line like:
    “You are EVERYTHING, and EVERYTHING is you,” completely insincere?
    I’m sure some songs and poetry are written for purely commerical reasons, but to me
    life is much more then looking, lusting, and grabbing. How sad if a person has a
    mental impediment that keeps them from experiencing the “deeper realms” of love.
    I think because of commercialization, we’ve skipped over the “courting” and the
    savouring aspects of love. Sex is an urge that is fed on a time clock. Could it be that
    people are too rushed for time? Is love a “dry” service akin to what robotic animals do?
    You know the old saying, “Give me liberity or give me death?” I say, “Give me love
    the way it should be, or give me death.
    I Googled the song, “A Girl Like You,” by the “Young Rascals, last night. As the song
    played, photographs of magnificently beautiful women were shown. Knowing that I
    will NEVER have an oppertunity to be loved by Goddess like that, makes the DEATH
    option seem more attractive EVERY DAY.

  54. Missattempts,

    Non-human animals are anything but “robotic”. The philosopher Voltaire used a similar “argument” to justify the screams of pain and anguish he drew from them while performing vivisections. I find such a view to be deplorable, at best.

    There are species who will mate for life, producing family after family. Who are we to say they do not experience the same chemical interactions that a human couple does?

    Non-human animals mourn their dead. Not just primates…I’ve seen what can only be called depression in gerbils, rats, mice, guinea pigs, all manner of birds, and various dogs and cats.

    In the face of oncoming traffic, a mother deer will push her child to safety. To save their mates, birds will sacrifice themselves to predators. Foxes will furiously throw themselves at those who threaten their kits. Bats and turkeys will shelter children and smaller members of their group with their wings from rain or cold. Rats will bring food to sick or injured cagemates.

    If you truly believe that our non-human cousins are “completely indifferent” to whom they have sex with, your schoolteachers were either remiss or incompetent. Many have elaborate mating strategies, or pick a mate for life, or wait until the environment can support new life. Most will only seriously copulate when they are in heat…although a large number will engage in masturbation in the meantime (dolphins, rats, various monkeys, tortoises, every bird I’ve ever known, dogs, cats, deer…the list goes on).

    Honestly, I cannot conceive of any way for you to have reached the conclusion that non-humans are “robotic” in anything that they do. I assure you, they are just as animal as you or I.

  55. You know that makes me wonder. Do men have more trouble getting sex than are our counterparts in the animal kingdom? Compared to something like a lion whose best chance at procreation necessitates that he overthrows an older lion with years of fighting experience, I guess I would say no. Men also have the largely illegal but probably always available option of prostitution unlike animals, then again I’ve heard that male chimpanzees will trade meat for sex which is interesting if true.

    As for animals mourning their dead I’ve seen video of elephants that stumble across the bones of other elephants. They really seem to recognize that they’re the remains of their own kind and will handle them with gentle reverence. Are they really morning the loss of one of their own or are we guilty of anthropomorphizing them? Either way its really interesting.

  56. It is true about the chimpanzees. Also, remember that our closest relatives, the bonobos, will use sex and mutual masturbation among adults and post-puberty adolescents to soothe hurt feelings and prevent fights.

    I will have to research lions, but I’d be wary of immediately saying only the head lion can mate with the females of the pride. For the longest time, something similar was said about wolves and coyotes…but now we know that a typical wild pack is actually an extended family (who naturally won’t inbreed) lead by the father and mother, rather than an “alpha” male and female with exclusive breeding rights.

    I for one am all in favor of legalization of prostitution. Make it held to health standards, screen the clientele and the male/female sex workers alike, eliminate pimps who take advantage of boys/girls, and treat it like any other service-oriented industry.

    Regardless of where you fall in the anthropomorphic argument, you have to agree that non-humans have emotions too. Whether they are as complex as ours really isn’t an issue to me…

  57. Male Orca in their prime will swim in pairs with injured males and catch food for them to share. Because I’ve spent so much time on and under the surface of the sea, I’ve observed this many times. One pair stayed together for years. Their behavior showed a deep companionship, the way the crippled male tried to help with the hunt but failed, and the other male pushed the prey towards him so he could make the kill, and then rushed towards him and put his arm around his shoulder as if to say “Good job buddy!”

    Orca pods put so much time and effort into caring for the elderly and infirm, it can only come from compassion.

  58. The Human female is the only female of a species that can have sex whenever she
    wants. No animal can do that. If women were completely like animals, they would have
    no preferences at all. It would ALL be completely by chemical reaction. That’s why
    there really is no such thing as “incest” in the animal kingdom.
    I read somewhere that because humans are NOT animals, that’s why a girl sits by a
    telephone sweating out whether she will recieve a telephone call from a perfered date.
    Animals don’t do that. They just engage. The animal world IS more fair. Though I did
    see an experiment where scientists put stuffed male Lions that looked unhealthy
    next to healthy looking stuffed Lions. The Lionesses ignored the “sickly” Lions, and
    boldly strode up to the “healthy” Lions.
    I once accidently uncovered a rabbit’s den while raking leaves in my backyard. The
    mother was not present. The babies made a cakiling sound. The mother came rushing
    back through a hole in the fence. She stopped short when she saw me. She would
    come closer. Animal’s ARE protective, but that is BUILT IN to them through chemical
    means. Human’s have that too, but NOT to the extent that animals do.
    No mere animal can raise as high, or fall as low, as a Human being. The ultimate
    legasy of Human Beings is to be like God!

  59. I’m sorry if I sound harsh when I say this, but it is clear you don’t know much of anything about the rest of the animal kingdom. Your teachers and schools utterly failed you.

  60. i laugh when men who write about men’s issues claim they aren’t part of the manosphere. they are.

    By this definition, male feminists are part of the so called manosphere.

    Besides when I read a manosphere blog, it has a heavy emphasis on the paleo diet, conspiracy theory, doomerism, and other BS that has nothing to do with men’s issues.

  61. You should check out Spawny’s blog, BP. It might be a little more “comedic” at times than you’re used to (but then again, I think you like Weird Al so maybe not) but we’ve been having some really great discussions about the sexes and there’s no male-bashing allowed. I don’t have a link right now, but if you click on his name it’ll bring you straight there.

    Maybe you’ll like what you see.

  62. Just to clarify, when you say “the manosphere” shouldn’t exist, what definition are you using? I tend to think of the term as Francis does…simply a very loose grouping of blogs that discuss men’s rights/issues, preferably written by men. It doesn’t sound like that’s what your definition is though.

    In emperical terms, that is not an accurate definition of the so called manosphere. A term I occasionally use to describe them is the Paleo-Game cult. If you look at the source of everything the so called manosphere believes in like game, the paleo diet, etc., it was started by internet marketers to scam men out of their money. The manosphere is a group of men who bought into several scams and are now trying to resell them. The ironic thing is that the founders of these scams like Eben Pagan (aka David DeAngelo) have already cashed out and moven on to other scams.

  63. I guess it’s just a failure to communicate, or “We Just Disagree,” (You should
    Google that song by Dave Mason.)
    BTW, I DID read EVERYTHING you wrote. And I agree that no one should harm
    an animal except in self defense. I just believe that Humans are “higher” then
    animals, and were placed on earth for a different reason then animals.
    We come from different schools of thought.
    If you are satisfied with your life as it is now, I’m happy for you! I’m from a different era,
    and from a different backround. Everyone tries to get over the hurdles of life, the best
    way they can.
    There’s no doubt that I am the oddest person you’ll ever converse with. I don’t
    think that I’ll be around much longer, and I’ll leave the world pretty unchanged
    from the way I am now. It is never my goal to “change” anyone. Not that I could.
    I want to thank you for allowing me to post here as long as you have. It IS
    something of a record for a person like me.
    I did mean EVERYTHING I said. You are a gem to me!

  64. Okay, I see where you are coming from. Not sure if I agree that it defines the manosphere anymore, but I can certainly see how the beginnings of it (and many blogs still) attempt to sell things to men or offer to “fix” them. Can’t fix something that isn’t broke though…

  65. “There’s adults on your blog?!”
    *sigh*
    Even I have been known to weaken. I’m about to start talking with The Fuzz about the MGTOW vs MHRA argument. Bar bar on youtube is hotting up with some great stuff.

  66. Yup. If you don’t love yourself, you can’t truly love anyone else…you’ll constantly be searching for someone to be your “missing piece” rather than giving them a whole person to cherish.

  67. Barbar usually has good stuff, imo.

    Which argument is this? About whether MGTOWs can be MHRAs? Or in regards to which path is more effective?

    My 2c is that as men are generally more independent, the MHRAs have not only the difficulty of herding cats but also getting them to actually *do* anything. I was pretty impressed that AVfM had a conference…it got men’s rights more publicity…but then they kinda stopped. Petitions have to be signed, shelters have to be opened, real open discussions (like what we have here, on your blog, on Francis’s) need to take place, male birth control needs to be funded, etc.

    I’d gladly donate time and money to such endeavors, but they need to start first. There’s more than enough tinder…where is the spark?

  68. Whether married guys can claim to be MGTOWs.

    And…they can claim anything they like. Whether it’s true, or whether it means anything if they can? those are different matters.

    AVFM is doing good things but they’re moving in a direction that leaves plenty of space for others doing different good stuff. I don’t need to castigate AVFM, their legal work and conferences are great. But at heart I’m more of an MGTOW by bar bar’s ‘recipe’.

  69. Lots of insightful commentary here, but I don’t have time right now to read it all before responding.

    “(I was never at Gregarious Wolf’s to begin with, so maybe that’s where EK knew JB from?).”

    I was at all three, and I think I was around at exactly the time they all “met” as luck would have it. 🙂
    Ibelieve that it was at Heartiste, during my two or three days total of perusing there. JB linked to her site and then EK and GW went over and posted there and had started their own blogs at essentially the same time.

    I agree with Emma about JB and her humor being the ‘draw’ there. I’d never be able to bite the blog bug myself, I don’t have the temperment or patience or empathy or any of those things people socially intelligent enough to run a good blog have….so hat’s off to all who do. …Emma, Swithy, Sophia I’m familiar with in particular here. 🙂

    I think the dynamics of a men’s forum often tend to change when women come in. I kind of lose interest when a forum gets too ‘girly’. People tend to become less frank, less humorous, less effective, in my estimation. I did like JB’s site, though I haven’t been over there in a while (I have a very addictive personality so I try to only view a few forums per day and force myself to have time limits on the internetz). I’ve posted at EK’s off and on. I find him to be intelligent and interesting, but it’s not the forum to go to if you want some uplifting material.

  70. So then would you give it a name at all? Or just say “I run a men’s rights/male issues blog”? Because at this point even mine might be considered that…

  71. Spawny, you describe an experience that has happened to me several times, with sudden distance towards things that had been intimate but are now of little interest. It can be a strangely dislocating experience, and sometimes very unpleasant.

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