Do Male Spaces Have To Be Hostile To Women?

Yes, according to two very excellent posts by Black Pill and Anti-Feminist Tech. I suggest giving them a read:

http://www.antifeministtech.info/2012/08/is-it-possible-to-defend-a-male-space-without-it-being-hostile-to-women/

http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/we-need-male-spaces-that-are-hostile-to-women/

However, I disagree that pro-male spaces necessarily have to be overtly hostile to women. What they should focus on is being hostile to any commenter/member who is hostile to their continued safety or existence, female or not. People can’t control what genitals they were born with, but they can control their words and actions. Banning someone from talking simply because they have the “incorrect” chromosomal makeup is an excellent way to fuel resentment…Resentment that really isn’t needed, and can turn away potential comrades. How is this any better than feminist spaces where the female moderators crush any attempt at true discussion from their male allies?

It’s much easier to create a space that is pro-male/anti female-solidarity than to create one that is openly hostile to women as a whole. Most guys I know in the MGTOW/men’s rights sphere aren’t hostile in the slightest…to make a female hostile space, they’d have to actually change their personalities. Conforming to a worse outlook on life helps no one, especially the men who may already be struggling with the harsher aspects of the “red pill”.

Instead, an environment of true equality and personal responsibility should be agreed upon and strictly maintained. Rules and commenting policies that are male oriented can go a long way towards this goal. For example, women can follow these rules or be banned if they refuse;

No pictures of oneself in your gravatar/profile
I have adhered to this rule since day one. Most people who have pictures of themselves in their gravatar tend to be women. Having a picture of yourself not only immediately outs your physical sex, but it means more attention from guys…especially if it’s an attractive picture. If you want to be taken seriously, leave the “selfies” behind.

No attention whoring
Yes, there are women on the internet. However, this doesn’t mean the internet is about you, or about women in general. Some parts of it are, and rightly so…but if you enter a male-safe space, you enter a part that is most assuredly not. If you find that you are speaking about yourself and your experiences more than offering solutions or support to the men who are speaking, you need to take a step back and think about what you’re doing. Do not get offended if a moderator points out that you seem to be seeking attention or asks you to stop commenting for a few hours. The majority of women like to talk, and can inadvertently interrupt or derail entire conversations with a mere paragraph. Don’t.

No shaming language
If you’re in a male-space as a woman, you are a guest and should conduct yourself as one. Be courteous, be polite, be understanding of their issues…and don’t engage in shaming. This includes calling men gay because they don’t want to get married or date, describing older virgins as “losers”, trying to convince men that they are incomplete without a woman, or constantly saying you’re “scared” of the anger you see in their words. Nobody is forcing you to be there, but if you make people feel worse than before you started talking, you can certainly be forced to leave.

No bringing up female-only issues
There are few issues that don’t span the entirety of human experience, but there are some. If it’s relevant to a story, it’s acceptable to make small references to your pregnancy, onset of puberty, physical development, etc as a female. Just remember that such things can make certain men uncomfortable, and shouldn’t be spoken about at length unless you know your audience is fine with it. If you are asked to stop talking about a particular topic or requested to rephrase your language, be courteous enough to do so. Using “what about teh wimmez” tactics is a no go here.

No irrational defense of women
As my MGTOW Survey showed, most guys don’t actually believe AWALT. So you can stop getting upset at every single generalization that crosses your line of sight. If you can’t disengage yourself from the idea of female solidarity long enough to realize that enough women do indeed act this way but it has no bearing on you personally, then a male-safe space probably isn’t for you. If you want to prove you are a Unicorn, it will show in how you approach, speak to, and support men…not because you keep insisting upon it.

No femsplaining
You are not a man. You don’t have a penis. You aren’t required to sign up for the Draft, had your bodily autonomy taken away when you were an infant via circumcision, are taught to never hit an entire sex even if they hit you first, or are told by the media that your sex drive is a potential weapon. You are likely not gender dysphoric, trans, or even have an inkling of what it is like to think in a masculine fashion. If you are like the majority of women, you only have a few male friends (if any) that you count as being extremely close. Do not come into a male-safe space and attempt to explain why the men present are wrong or how they don’t understand. In this instance, it’s you who doesn’t understand and you need to respect that fact.

No feminist theory
Though many colleges, schools, and the media in general state that feminism is about equality for women and men, numerous aspects of this ideology are toxic towards men. If you are a feminist in a male-safe space, tread very carefully…you most likely aren’t going to be welcome right away, if at all. Depending on the space, the same could go for tradcon women. If you are a true egalitarian, you will probably be accepted but it’s still a good idea to speak in a respectful rather than casual manner, at least in the beginning. Men have to deal with being called incapable, stupid, or socially inept in our culture. It’s high time that they receive respect instead.

No damseling
This can be done in one of two ways. The first is largely unintentional, where a woman disagrees with a male commenter and then appeals to her online friends/other men who have agreed with her in the past to defend her. This unfortunately divides the community, creates “white knighting” behaviors, and can result in a total breakdown of the forum if it goes on for long enough. Hint: This is why some male-safe spaces don’t allow female commenters. The other has the same effect, but is done intentionally. Obviously both are bad, but the second is worse as it showcases the feminine imperative to break up male spaces if they don’t conform to what women think they should be.

These are but a few of the rules I’ve set for myself or seen other commenters disregarding completely in male-safe spaces. There may very well be others that should be included. Oh, and if any of these seem misogynistic or hostile to you…they aren’t. Stressing kindness, courtesy, understanding, personal responsibility, and respect should never be considered “hostile”.

Thoughts?

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36 thoughts on “Do Male Spaces Have To Be Hostile To Women?

  1. Hostile: unfriendly; antagonistic.

    I’m not sure that I buy the emotional impact of the choice of words. At the same time, I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a male or female “space.” Let us erase that ambiguous Feminist term now, please. Why do men need a “male space?” So that we don’t have to listen to such fluffered language as “male space.” It’s a psychological thing.

    What is considered “male space” is simply the congregation of men to enjoy the activities that we enjoy. The important point is that often, we congregate or isolate to get away from women. Don’t get me wrong, we love women, but sometimes we just need a break from the female activity, the chatter, the relationship talk, the incessant commands couched in “we” terms, the ever present need for a sensitivity that men just don’t require.

    It isn’t women per se that need to be ousted, it is anything that is not guy-energy. Take 5 guys and a tomboy. Fine. She’s acting like a guy. Take 2 men and 3 tomboys, and the balance has toppled.

    I agree that there are times and places that should be dedicated to men. These are not events where we actively keep a vigilant eye for the estrogen-based barbarian to overrun our manly walls, it’s merely a time where women do not exist.

    Sorry, not this weekend, honey. What are we doing? Don’t know, not your business, go hang out with your girlfriends. Many men experience women-free spaces the way that a horse enjoys being unharnessed.

    Yes. I believe there’s a time when men should just be left to our own affairs.

  2. Very well put, Francis.

    I’m not 100% sure how people like myself fit in, but I like your example pertaining to tomboys (and by extension, tomgirls). Even the most “hardcore” of tomboys that I’ve known have still defaulted to Team Woman when it comes down to it. Presumably effeminate guys would do likewise for Team Man. They aren’t trans or dysphoric…they just have interests usually associated with the opposite sex. Thus, a tomboy’s energy isn’t male anymore than a regular woman’s.

  3. “Don’t get me wrong, we love women, but sometimes we just need a break from the female activity, the chatter, the relationship talk, the incessant commands couched in “we” terms, the ever present need for a sensitivity that men just don’t require.”

    This is, I believe, what women truly don’t understand. 98% of males and females have sex specific brains…literally different ways of viewing and interacting with the world. It’s not that men who want to be with other men are forming a He-man Woman Haters Club. It’s that every once in a while it’s good to not have to watch every word you say, to not have to worry about a joke being “offensive”, to talk openly about issues involving one’s female significant others.

    I’ve been to all-male sleepovers and getaways with my friends in high school and early college. The energy there, surrounded only by people with my type of mind, was amazingly relaxed and open. Of course, I cut my hair, bound my breasts, and wore baggy clothing so my ridiculous body didn’t cause any problems…it was so refreshing to go entire days without thinking of myself as a woman. It’s something that people who are both female-bodied and feminine-minded can’t actually comprehend, nor should they be expected to.

  4. “Do Male Spaces Have To Be Hostile To Women?” No, but those types of places have so many wounded and angry men in them that you could argue the hostility is inevitable.

    Another argument that is in the articles you linked is that any pro man community that isn’t aggressively anti female will eventually see a slow but gradual increase in the number of female commenters and that no matter how well intentioned those women may be, their presence will affect the community one way or the other. I cant claim to have researched this myself but Karen Straughan has talked about how women have a strong automatic own group preference and that men largely do not. This is why I think that even women that love men and aren’t exactly fans of the feminist movement still do things that are questionable.

    I mean this is just my anecdotal evidence but I’ve seen seen men tell gut wrenching stories about their divorce and how it nearly destroyed them only for the women on the site to jump to the defense of the woman involved (A woman they have never met and have no reason to defend) Don’t get me wrong I know there are two sides to every story but when it’s someone who has clearly been hurt and just wants to vent to a sympathetic audience it seems really messed up to play devils advocate and try to explain the other side.

  5. Absolutely. We are actually talking about this very set of circumstances over at Spawny’s blog. I recommend taking a gander…let me go grab the link.

  6. “People can’t control what genitals they were born with, but they can control their words and actions.”

    If more people followed this principle, there would be more friendly relations between all varieties of people. Well said!

  7. Tarnished,

    This is an incredibly complex topic…

    First off, many traditionally “all male spaces” are dangerous for low status men–

    ie prison and military life…

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/27/retired-marine-reveals-secret-suffering-of-male-military-rape-victims.html

    now we’ve seen the so-called “voice for men” site descend into a parody of that cesspool TGMP….

    What is really needed are gynocentrism free spaces….

    gynocentrism is “putting women first”-ie “women get first call for lifeboats.”

    obviously when AVfM has a trad-con like Judgy Bitch-she can’t help but to put women first…

    it’s ironic that supposedly “male friendly spaces” have turned into gynocentric cesspools…

    it’s no surprise that feminism is gynocentric…

    here’s an analogy…

    (I’ve lurked at Stormfront and actually spoken to a few WN’s IRL)

    A WN can say “I just want the right other races have to assemble with other whites and put my own racial self interest first as other races have done.”

    If you put aside the Marxist belief that white’s are the privileged class, there is nothing inherently racist from the above statement….

    White supremacist’s believe that white’s are superior–ie the HBD/race realist crowd. In fact I’ve found far more racist white supremacists who shit all over WN’s and would want nothing to do with WN’s. (Ironic, I know.)

    –however, within the WN movement, you will find many/mostly white supremacists….

    –the analogy is similar to feminism…

    It is theoretically possible that a feminist is an egalitarian and believes in a dictionary definition of “equality between the sexes.”

    More feminist’s believe in advocating for women (regardless of whether or not it is harmful to men.) Closer to a definition of “a movement that advocates on behalf of women.”

    There are feminist’s who obviously hate men (other feminist’s will often say they are radicals and feminism is not a monolith.)

    It is no surprise that feminism has a large gynocentric component just as WN has a large white supremacist component. Sometimes some feminist women acknowledge some double standards ie that it is unfair to expect men to always pay for dates. Traditionalists rarely question this. One could even make the claim that the average traditionalist is more gynocentric than the average feminist–that would be highly debatable and hard to prove…

    Now to continue on with this analogy…

    If feminist’s are WN’s, we shouldn’t find it surprising that many are white supremacist/gynocentrist. However, if those that supposedly oppose them muliculturalist (anti-facist)/M(h)RA’s are also white supremacist/gynocentrist-then do they really oppose them?

    –and non-white’s being white supremacist isn’t as far fetched as you may think. Just look at “ethnic” girls throwing in blue contact lenses and dying their hair. (Of course an argument can be mad that they are only trying to increase their status within the rules of a game they didn’t create.) So M(h)RA’s too will gladly throw low status men under the buss for female approval. However, Elem and Esmay won’t allow this discussion to happen.

    –Sorry if I rambled on, this is something that I’ve been trying to write a post about but haven’t quite got together, so consider this thinking out loud….

  8. Hey Stoner.

    It’s cool to ramble, I have no rules against it. If writing it down helps you to think of a better way to phrase a post then by all means do so.

    I’ve met a few WN’s in real life too, but as I’m essentially the poster child for what the Aryan race was supposed to look like, they didn’t hate me. In fact, they praised my physical appearance and continuously said they hoped I’d have lots of healthy white babies. It was really strange and disturbing, like I was some kind of brood mare that had a “duty” to pass on my particular phenotype. The experience of talking to them made me want to take a scalding hot shower…*shudder* The idea of men and women who think the way they do seeing me as “one of them” is absolutely nauseating.

    I’m going to have to think more about the similarities between feminism and white supremacy before I comment. But yeah, I think having a non-gynocentric space for everyone to be in (whether virtual or IRL) would be a fantastic thing. It would certainly clear up who truly wants equality and who doesn’t…I have a feeling that the numbers of real egalitarians is smaller than people say.

  9. “I’m going to have to think more about the similarities between feminism and white supremacy before I comment.”

    I just want to clarify a point…

    while there are certainly feminist’s who are white supremacist…

    http://dearwhitefeminists.wordpress.com/update/

    that’s not to say that feminism is inherently white supremacist…

    my point was there is no internal contradiction for a WN to be white supremacist or a feminist to be gynocentrist even if they claim otherwise. The contradiction is when those who claim to ideologically oppose them have the same biases. Hence me being so harsh towards M(h)RA’s as of late…

  10. No, I get it. Probably could have been clearer on my end, but it’s 1am and I’ve been awake for 22 hours straight…Sorry if I sounded weird or gave off the wrong vibe. I knew what you meant, and it makes sense. I can’t wait to see your actual post about it when you get it together.

    Have a good night, Stoner.

  11. I think it depends on the goal.
    I disagree that excluding women ipso facto fuels resentment. It’s their “home” and they can invite whomever they like. At least, that’s my perspective. I don’t understand why anyone would stick around a forum that are obviously hostile to him or her, however.

  12. Dear Tarnished,
    I hope I’m still allowed to post here. I have posted on WN blogs, but I have NEVER
    made any WN statements on YOUR blog. I don’t believe in “guilt by association,”
    and I don’t believe that people should be penalized for their political beliefs. Besides,
    wouldn’t it be dreadfully dull if ONLY like minded people were allowed to post?
    I know that people can influence other people’s opinions. They develop an antipathy
    towards another and try tell you to exclude them. I have been banned from MANY
    forums for my outspokenness, and REASEARCH of statements I’ve made on blogs
    unrelated to this topic. I think it’s unfair.
    I also believe that if a person makes a claim that is UNFACTUAL because of their
    biases, they should expect to be challeged on that false claim.
    I think it is a simple fact, in the case of Bill Cosby for example, that he DID rape
    those women, just as Bill Clinton forced himself on many women. The fact that
    some women invent false accusations for money doesn’t mean they ALL do.
    Each claim should be examined individually. As to why the women waited so long,
    there are explainations for that as well.
    In any case, this was my “test letter” to see if I’m still allowed here. If you are
    STILL the Tarnished that I know and LOVE, you won’t allow slanderous talk about
    about simple opinions to curb freedom of speech.

  13. Liz,

    Most wouldn’t. I will sometimes read blogs or forums that are “hostile” because I don’t actually view it as hostility. Male anger is generally coarser than female anger, and the language used on male-only or male-safe forums reflects this. I understand it, so it doesn’t frighten me and certainly doesn’t dissuade me from reading their stories and helping if I am allowed/able.

    I’m also quite capable of knowing that even if someone says AWALT, they aren’t talking about me since I know I don’t act “that way”. It’s like if someone said “all blondes are stupid”…well, I am not, so that generalization doesn’t apply to me.

    But if other people prefer to not read “hostile” blogs or forums, that is their choice and I support that too.

  14. Lon/Missattempts,

    I already replied to your comment on Stoner’s blog, so I’ll just repost it here:

    Lon, You are absolutely still allowed to comment on my blog. I only asked you to not say racist things…I don’t allow it. If you believe white women are more physically attractive than women of other ethnic groups, that’s your opinion and it’s fine. However, saying that white women are “the best” or inherently superior to all other groups is not. My skin color doesn’t make me a better person than someone who is darker. Honestly, with how milk-white my skin is, this is a good thing… there’d be a lot of inferior-moraled people out in the world. The only groups who think my blonde hair and blue eyes are automatic indicators of a strong moral compass are the same people I wouldn’t associate with if they were the last ones on Earth.

    I do believe in free speech, but I don’t believe in hate speech. Different sexes, genders, ethnicities, etc are not inherently worse than other ones, and I just don’t want that kind of talk on my blog.

    You’re allowed to think it.
    You simply can’t say it *here*.

  15. I agree with Liz, in a sense that a group can hold anyone out that they want. And I also agree with Francis Roy – it is not a malicious action to keep someone out. Men just want to have their manly fun (lol), just like women want to have girly fun 😉 They don’t feel comfortable having their fun in the presence of women. I mean, I don’t really want to discuss makeup and fashion with men so much, or my boyfriend, because they simply wouldn’t understand and be bored. Same probably goes for men. And why try to butt into a conversation that will likely be boring, anyway? Most women aren’t really interested in discussing what car tyres are the best, or the details of the latest football match.

    That’s not to say women shouldn’t be trying to join groups who like to discuss tyres, or that men shouldn’t try to join groups who like to discuss fashion. If you really are interested in those things (rather than just trying to butt in because of a SJW anti-discrimination agenda or only to gain power), then you will probably fit right in. In my experience, there aren’t that many girls and boys who are naturally into the opposite sex’s interests, so they don’t disrupt the dynamic.

  16. All very good points, Emma. Especially about trying to join a group just because there aren’t many (or any) people of your sex present. That’s how attention whores are born.

  17. In order to be realeased from suffering and they cycle of birth and death, it may be that male and female spaces must be segregated. We see this in the monk and nun traditions of Buddhism and the great philosophical systems of East and South Asia.

  18. I can see segregating them according to masculine/feminine energy or personality types. However, if it’s done according to body type I can think of many people (self included) who wouldn’t be able to mentally survive in a community with the same sex.

    Also, not all faiths that believe in reincarnation think it’s a cycle of suffering that need to be broken. For example, I’m Wiccan and believe that to be reborn is to be given another chance to learn from a different point of view.

  19. ” I’m Wiccan and believe that to be reborn is to be given another chance to learn from a different point of view.”

    Its that too, but suffering is a fact of life.

    “I can see segregating them according to masculine/feminine energy or personality types. However, if it’s done according to body type”

    Body type is the easiet, most practical and most obvious way. Within body are a diversity of energies and personality types. Segregating by personality type would probably not be beneficial for a wide variety of reasons.

    ” I can think of many people (self included) who wouldn’t be able to mentally survive in a community with the same sex. ”

    Why not? I have found it quite rewarding to be around diverse people of my same sex. If I had to be around the same “personality type” all the time though, that would drive me nuts, particularly depending on what “type” of personality.

  20. I experience a great deal of frustration, miscommunication, and confusion when interacting with other members of my sex (female). It’s far easier and rewarding to be with those of the same gender (male). In cases like mine, you’re essentially advocating keeping a male-minded person sequestered from others that they can spiritually, mentally, and emotionally connect to and grow with. In return, they are cloistered with a large group who thinks and feels differently, approaches life with (generally) separate goals, and has an entirely distinctive way of communicating.

    Just because I have a clitoris and breasts doesn’t mean I automatically identify or comprehend others who share my body type. Likewise for male gender dysphorics, who were born with testicles and a penis, but flourish when with women rather than men.

  21. “I’m Wiccan and believe that to be reborn is to be given another chance to learn from a different point of view.”

    Great answer! Those who know history can see signs that such returned souls are turning the deadly and destructive path of humanity, however slowly. We are going to go through a bad time in the years ahead. But if we don’t succeed in killing ourselves off, we have a chance to make the world a better place, one where the concept of life being a punishment will fade away. There is much about life to enjoy, but we allow our innate evils corrupt that experience. That is going to change.

  22. Tarnished you seem to be confused between “personality types, energies, and body types”.

    “one where the concept of life being a punishment will fade away.”

    Who promotes that idea? Is it a Jewish thing? Christian?

  23. “I can see segregating them according to masculine/feminine energy or personality types. However, if it’s done according to body type I can think of many people (self included) who wouldn’t be able to mentally survive in a community with the same sex. ”

    Individuals of one sex have a variety of energies and types. It appears however that you are not interested in engaging with diverse people but a group of people of one “type”. In that case being grouped with men will disappoint you because we come in a wide variety.

    Grouping by type would be a nightmare for me. I can’t imagine living the rest of my life with INTJs or Type A personalities. I prefer to be in a group of people that do not all behave or think similarly. I prefer to be exposed to a diversity of thought and behavior.

    In the short time I’ve spent sequestered with my own sex I have gained a lot thought I wouldn’t want to do it forever. We weren’t entirely sequestered, we had exposure to the family people in the sangha.

    Living the monastary/nunnery/ashram lifestyle is not forever, You can do it for short periods of time and gain a lot of benefit from it. The annoying things about your sex that you may find, as I did mine, are kept to a minimum as silence is observed quite often and even the group projects you do together are highly focused. Control of the sense of speach is practiced so you don’t have to hear someone go off on subects you find boring or annoying.

    I highly recommend it for EVERYONE.

  24. @Thanksvegan
    Ah, I see were the confusion lies. You’re thinking I meant all different energies or personality types, whereas I actually stated masculine/feminine energy and masculine/feminine personality types.

    And it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that men have different energies and personality types. Perhaps you have only read my most recent posts, but since 8th grade I’ve only had male friends (I’m currently 30). This isn’t from lack of trying…I simply haven’t found another female with a masculine personality type or energy to befriend.

    Do not presume to know what type of people I engage with. You are wrong, and it makes you sound arrogant, at least on “paper”. My friends are teachers, businessowners, IT technicians, students, nurses, cashiers, and all manner of in between. I’m an INTJ personality type, my FwB is an ENFP…we actually get along swimmingly. My friends are, I’m sure, all different personality types as well. The only constant between all of them is they are men.

    You should have given more details about which kind of monastery/nunnery lifestyle you meant…lifetime vs short periods. I can spend approximately 5 days – 1 week with most women before going crazy. Maybe I’d be able to handle more if there was a minimum of conversation, but I’m not positive.

    What things do you find annoying about the male sex? I can’t think of anything I find annoying that is inherent to men.

  25. I find a lot of false bravado, ego-driven competitive spirit and lustfulness amongts many members of my male sex. In the monastary it wasn’t so bad but the ego rears its head there. If you have a teacher that all respect then those egos can be kept in relative check.

  26. “But yeah, I think having a non-gynocentric space for everyone to be in (whether virtual or IRL) would be a fantastic thing. It would certainly clear up who truly wants equality and who doesn’t…I have a feeling that the numbers of real egalitarians is smaller than people say.”

    The space might default to androcentricism though.

  27. “Don’t get me wrong, we love women, but sometimes we just need a break from the female activity, the chatter, the relationship talk, the incessant commands couched in “we” terms, the ever present need for a sensitivity that men just don’t require.”

    Don’t tell me the fragile male ego doesn’t require sensitivity. I lived on year in a monastary and if you didn’t walk on egg shells around some of the monks they would roar at you. It took a very powerful teacher to keep them in check.

  28. @Thanksvegan
    Re: androcentric places
    I don’t see that as a bad thing. There are a plethora of gynocentric places, but only a few for men…and even these tend to be religious in nature. It’s about time that more spaces become androcentric. It would help to combat the princess mentalities of women to be in places where the conversation didn’t revolve around them.

  29. Don’t tell me the fragile male ego doesn’t require sensitivity.

    You have lost my respect for using this age-old generic shaming tactic phrase. Your response is the very kind of nonsense that is making society a sick place. “Men don’t want to cater to women’s sensitivity.” There’s nothing wrong with either the statement, or what it points to. But you just couldn’t help but to swoop in with a wagging finger: but men have egos too!

    Of course we do. But that isn’t the subject of the discussion, is it?

    Do women always have to be catered to with each statement in a conversation? There are times when adults want to associate with adults, and children, only children.

    Join your little friends, piously catering to “the fragile female ego”. Meanwhile the big people will be speaking amongst ourselves, with adult understanding and respect, knowing that there are times where we want to be together, and others, apart, and that we can speak of such issues openly without getting our dander up.

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