Over on goingyourownway.com, a truly fantastic mgtow forum that you really should check out, is a post by a gentleman who goes by SecularScientist. In it, he discusses two female students, their conversation, and a follow-up conversation involving all three of them.
If you are not offended by some harsh (but justified) language, I recommend reading his post directly: http://www.goingyourownway.com/mgtow-lounge-main-forum/discourse-female-student-tonight-3163
For those who don’t wish to visit the aforementioned forum, here’s the breakdown:
SecularScientist is a professor who was preparing for class while two female students (W1 and W2) spoke about the kitchen and bathroom renovations done to W1’s home by her husband. She revealed to W2 that it took him 3 months to accomplish due to him already working 2 jobs, thus he could only complete the project at night. W1 acknowledged that the results were beautiful though, and was considering rewarding her husband with sex for a job well done.
At this point, Secular drops his marker to remind them they have an audience. What follows is a conversation in which both women attempt to get Secular to admit “happy wife, happy life”, which he obviously disagrees with. Then they try to shame him, stating that it is “selfish” for him to have a nice car and 2 incomes without a woman to “share” it with. It’s also implied that he must be looking for a woman to wed, as W2 assures him that he’ll find one someday. Secular is having none of it, gives his students the briefest glimpse of mgtow, and departs to tell his department chair of their conversation to protect himself.
The discussion between the two women that SecularScientist describes is hardly unique. As I state in my own post “On Being An Unintentional Spy”, I’ve heard many women speak of their boyfriends or husbands in such ways. To many women, the relationship they have with the man in their life boils down to “what’s in it for me?”. Let’s take a look at some of the narcissism present in their words.
1. Men are utilities
Neither woman makes mention of how hard the man worked, or how he put his wife’s happiness before his own need to recuperate from his 2 jobs. In fact, W2 has the gall to ask W1 why the renovations “took so long”. It’s obvious that they see nothing wrong with having a man slave away at 2 jobs during the day and do manual labor at night.
2. Unwillingness to help
W1 off handedly says to W2 that she doesn’t know how to “do any of that stuff” in regards to the renovations. It doesn’t seem to have crossed her mind to have watched a YouTube video or read a book on home alterations. Heck, she could even have just learned from her husband and worked at his side. Yet, she does not. Instead, she reaps the asthetic benefits of his labors while doing nothing to aid him. Now, some might say I’m being too harsh on W1…perhaps they have small children who need to be cared for, or she also puts in long hours at work. My response would be that she could help with the project after the kids are asleep, and that I highly doubt she has two jobs as well. Even if she somehow does, there’s little reason he can stay awake long enough to put in hours on renovations and she can’t.
3. Sex as a reward
This is the most reprehensible of the issues at hand here, so I’ve saved it for last. The fact that W1 says “he might get some cookie (sex) this week” is bad enough. But to view sexual intimacy with your spouse as nothing more than positive reinforcement…that he may not even get…is absolutely deplorable. Sex is meant to be a shared experience of pleasure, closeness, and desire, not a bone one throws to a spouse who has done something that pleases you. Some would say that this is an an acceptable way of things, that sexual “access” is where a woman’s power lies. This is complete crap. If you have nothing to offer a partner but sex, you have a lot of growing to do as a human being. Others might say that she is under no obligation to share her body with him, regardless of what he does for her. This is also crap. Perhaps the argument works if both partners are asexual or have incredibly low libidos…but otherwise no. Why is it considered acceptable for a spouse to withhold physical intimacy from the other simply because they haven’t performed to expectations? Sex is not something a woman gives to a man. It is a mutual gift that they give to each other!
I’m sure I’ve missed other examples of selfishness and narcissism that were portrayed here, but my readers should get the jist. A relationship of any kind, be it marriage/FwB/dating/friendship, needs to have an aspect of give and take. If one half consistently does all the work in the relationship, it is sure to die. But if both parties make it a goal to please the other as best as possible, everyone wins and love will blossom eternally.
Take a look at your own relationships today. Are you treated fairly? Do you make the other person as happy as they make you? When was the last time you expressed thanks for what they do for you…and vice versa? Do you feel accepted and cherished, and do you take steps to ensure your companion is too? It can be easy to get caught up in the constant bustle and rush of modern life, but that doesn’t mean we should use this as an excuse to let our relationships decay around us.
Thoughts, anyone?
By the way…
If you are a mgtow who is tired of the negativity that can surround going your own way, and just need a place to talk to other men who are actually interested in overcoming depression, anger, frustration, and sadness (all valid and legitimate emotions!) then http://www.goingyourownway.com is the site for you. The moderators there are awesome, and it’s one of the most helpful and brotherly mgtow communities I’ve ever seen. But don’t take my word for it…see for yourself! 🙂
Related Posts
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/on-being-an-unintentional-spy/
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/men-women-orgasms-nobody-is-satisfied/
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/what-is-sex/
Tarnished Sophia 
Part of the reason i don’t want to get married is fear of a reversal in behavior. What am i to do then as a man who has much, chooses to share it, but to give it away without the benefits, because i have to divorce for my happiness.
As far as the position on sex goes, that is immoral in so many ways. I can imagine most of people like that were influenced by the idea that their bodies are so precious, that even marriage, which means union, one, not two, does not matter. If the two agree, fine. But marriage is an vow to act as one, no separates.
Carl,
That is a very legitimate fear. I know men, both in the real world and online, who’ve basically said that as soon as the wedding is over, their wife changes from a woman who talks about having an equal marriage, enjoying sex, and being loving/pleasant…to someone who is none of those. One of my customers went through a terrible divorce that truly made him question everything he thought he knew. He said the first year of their marriage saw her personality do a complete 180 degree turn. This story is repeated again and again online…
You might enjoy the Related Posts section I just added to this post, especially the What Is Sex link. I think it matches well with what you’re saying here.
Ok whats an mgtow?
MGTOW stands for men going their own way. It’s typically an individual decision to avoid women (to varying degrees) as men wake up to the gynocentric laws that make marriage, cohabitation, and sometimes even sex, dangerous for them to engage in. I recommend either visiting the site I talked about in this post, or scrolling down to my Categories and reading the MGTOW section.
I hear ya brotha I married my high school girlfriend, never lived with her prior to marriage, had kids, woke up five years later on a saturday to a two page list of inconsequential bullshit chores I was expected to do over the weekend. She was always type A and I’ve always been type B and we fought to the point where I finally said fuck this I wanted a marriage not an employer. My advice is to cohabitate before marriage.
Well, you do have to be careful with cohabitation too. Many states have common law marriage, sometimes as little as 3 years. And women have successfully won cases even without such laws if they can prove the boyfriend paid enough of her bills. It’s a scary world…
Interestingly, I’m a Type A personality and my FwB is a Type B, but we never get into fights about it. Part of this is that although we’ve been “together” for 8 years, we have our own homes. The other part is that we don’t see each other’s personality as a flaw, but as a way to round each other out. I plan and pay for things like our meals out, our entertainment, etc and he reminds me to relax once we’re there, lol.
I mean cohabitate for a year or so, if it doesn’t work dont get married.
That *should* be fine.
I
I’ve only ever heard husbands spout, “happy wife, happy life”. I just chuckle unless there’s an opportunity for me to teach the 4 Noble Truths and the real path to happiness.
You have to be attuined to the cultural brainwashing (expectatations) of your time.
I was born on the outer edge of the “Baby Boom” generation. (1958.) There were
three popular quotes regarding gender relationships:
1) Men turn women into sex objects. And women turn men into SUCESS objects.
This still holds true today, and is the largest cause of friction between the sexes.
2) This quote is a little older, but still reflects those times: “Women trade sex for “love”
and men give “love” for sex. “Love” takes in a lot of territory, including doing the
“manly” chores you refered to above. Years ago, women were still expected to
to do “womenly” things like child care, cooking, and cleaning. It was the man’s
obligation to confront the harsh world and “bring home the bacon.”
“Love” also meant that the man kept up his EMOTIONAL concern about the welfare
of his family. It is a known fact that women aren’t all that upset if the man has affairs
as long as SHE is the one he returns to. Bill Crosby’s wife has a Billion reasons to stay
with him REGARDLESS of how many women come forth with allegations. Of course,
he might be paying extortion to her as well, but that’s another story.And women WANT
a high status man. It’s only natural. “Sex” is never just sex to a normal woman.
Of course, I’m an “oldster.” So I’m speaking from the perspective of my day.
3) “To engage in sex, a man needs a place, a woman needs a REASON.”
Again, this ties into the fact that men are more “visual” then women and have much
more testosterone then women. Women can manupalite men with this “achilles’ heel.”
Many “icels,” believe that the top 20% of “Alpha Males” recieve 80% of the
“quality” (Beautiful) female attention. Who knows?
To sum up we should ask ourselves: “Which is better? To live a life of agony,
because God made you weak, ugly, undesirable, and unlucky, or to exersise
the COURAGE to takes to go into a garage, turn on the ignition switch, and make
a painless “transition?”
I don’t think I’ve ever heard any wife say the phrase ‘Happy wife, happy life’.
It’s usually diplomatic-speak for:
“My wife makes my life a living hell whenever she’s unhaaapy and bitches up a storm/henpecks/withholds sex. Since I’m relatively easy to please, I do what she wants in order to buy silence so she doesn’t completely suck my will to live every moment of every day.”
@Liz:
Correct. No wives ever say that. It would be a poor reflection on herself. Married men, however, say it because they are attempting to use humor to deflect from their clearly blue-pill pu$$ywhipped existence. So, when he says “Happy wife, happy life” he can somehow justify his pathetic behavior kowtowing to an infantile and eternally malcontent spouse while looking like “just another regular guy” in the company of the other blue-pill schlumps at the BBQ. So the other schlumps nod and grimmance and say “You know it man!” and then resume their brain-deadening talk about sports or whatever opiate of the masses they are most fond of.
Miss was on target.
I cohabited for three years before marriage. All done and dusted after six years total.
It sounds like a joke, but she (a sweet young woman) turned into her mother. I was not like her milksop of a father.
No wife is ever happy. There is always something else (or someone) that she wants, and if her man doesn’t provide it she makes his life hell. It happened to my dad, it happened to my brothers, it happened to me.
Just another marriage myth intended to fool men into thinking that marriage is bliss.
Insidious Sid: Yep. And ouch…here I was thinking that my post overshot the depressing angle! It’s unfortunately, too often the norm.
“No wife is ever happy.”
Well…I’m happy so there’s one.
But I don’t think my personal happiness is the be-all-end-all of a happy family.
True, Liz.
And I’m certainly not a wife, but I am incredibly happy. The thing is, we not only have great guys in our lives, but we recognize this fact *and* they respect us as well! 🙂
Yes!
And thankyou for that “upbeatness”, Sophia! 🙂
I’m the “silver lining” type. 😉
Does it ever occur to anyone that you only get a return on your level?
For example, what would an immature person have to offer a level headed person?
The mature person would have nothing to offer the immature person. They would be
like “Two ships that pass in the night.” The immature person would either find the
mature person a bore, or even critise him/her. People eventually lose respect for
people they can “play.” People need STRONG people in their lives. They mistake
physical strength for emotional strengh, but the two are not the same.
Strangely enough, the best selection a person can make is a person who can take
or leave them. Tarnished knows these facts. For a 30 year-old to know these facts
given her back round is almost a miracle.
That’s why it’s vitally important that as soon as Tarnished feels she’s ready, she MUST
right her bio. It would be a recounting of her experiences and an adivce book.
To acknowlege the greatness of Tarnished is NOT to put her on a pedistal, it is a
simple fact. The book would be in the same class as Gilbran’s “The Prophet.”
Tarnished,
i stumbled across this on youtube and had to share. I don’t know your guinea pig but, it is funny.
This is indeed narcisstic. It is supposed to be reciprocal. But it is not their or our fault. We are in a sense a victims of how society, parents, outside world influences us. We are supposed to be Christian societies. But in many parts or perhaps maybe most, what passes for Christianity has little to do with Christs teachings. Unfortunate fact is faith established by Christ and Apostles, not excluding rich contributions of Church Fathers, and aslo Mothers is dead in the Western World. Timeless teachings say that it is two people, not one. In marriage happiness supposed to be shared. But unfortunately we do not live in ideal world, what is even worse our society has distorted these teachings, and we in a sense created a golden calf. People are not born self entitled, greedy or selfish. They influenced by others. While human instincts play a part, but it depends on how ae are influenced. Whether our good traits or bad.
I don’t think that we should necessarily be “Christian societies”. I very much am against the concept of having a theocracy, and our Founding Fathers (some of whom were Deist like myself) did specify that no exact faith was to be used to pass laws in the US, which was imo very intelligent of them.
However, I have no major issues with the Christian faith and do see how things would be better if more people followed the vows they took in their respective churches.
I apologise if I was misunderstood. I did not advocate for theocracy. What I was trying to say is that since United States is mostly populated by Christians, or those who call themselves Christians, it makes me shake my head how far they strayed from Christ’s teachings. What prompted me to write this is what I read on Darlocs site about how Christians in US tend to idolize women and marriage. Well first of all Christ himself was not married, and there is a rich monastic tradition. Christianity also teaches us that we all sinned and fallen short of glory of God. So we should not put anyone man or woman on pedestal. But be humble and compassionate, something that modern Christians have trouble with. In addition some men say that Christianity is midandric. My response is Christianity is diverse religion and there are different ways it was practised. Christianity practised in the West today is different from Christianity being practised say in Greece or Russia, or 6 century Byzantium. In the West, we always claim to be good Christians, but when I read Bible or think about, it becomes clear just how badly Christ’s teaching being distorted. Apostles had they seen what passes for Christianity would be shocked. Well I live in Canada, so I have no idea how it is in US. Have a great day
That I can agree with. Though I am not a Christian myself, I do have many friends and some relatives/siblings who are. Sadly, what is taught nowadays is closer to being “churchian” than Christian.
Now this is a good role model for women ( for anyone http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/als-sufferer-tells-his-wife-he-loves-her-out-loud-for-first-time-in-16-years-10055833.html)