Being Gender Dysphoric In The Manosphere

This may get a bit ranty, but I’ve been holding back on writing this for nearly a year and recent events have pushed me into finally finishing it.

You see, I’ve found that in quite a few manosphere-based circles, it doesn’t matter if you support men and boys. It doesn’t matter if you believe the system is gynocentric, or that many situations favor women over men. It doesn’t matter if you say that you refuse to marry because of the inequality that current laws and policies push on the status of matrimony. What does matter is your worldview, and if it’s similar enough to theirs. If it’s not…watch out.

These are just a few examples of the types of charges and claims that get leveled against me;

The Charge of Falsehood
AKA You’re not actually gender dysphoric/gender dysphoria doesn’t exist. I get this one anytime someone doesn’t like my presence on a male dominant blog or forum. Oftentimes they will put gender dysphoria in scare quotes, as though that will eliminate it as a legitimate entry in the DSM-5. Basically, they dislike the fact that their opinion of “Female Body = Female Brain 100% of the time” (and vice versa) is proven wrong by the small percentage of the population like myself. Much like how some Christians believe gay people aren’t real, some believe G.D. isn’t real and will dismiss out of hand anyone who claims to.

The Charge of Inaccuracy
AKA You’re wrong about what you experience. Mostly used when I say something unpopular, like mentioning that I’ve noticed men often treat me very differently compared to my male coworkers. Or when I note that my brothers and I were given the same labor-intensive chores while growing up. I am told that I’m imagining things, that I’m being hypersensitive, or even that I’m looking for something to complain about. This charge is one that I particularly hate, because it’s so similar to feminists who tell men “misandry doesn’t exist, you’re complaining about nothing”. I loathe when feminists use it on men, and I loathe it when the people I’m trying to spread the word for use it on me. It’s as though they believe that in admitting sexism against females still exists, that sexism against men doesn’t. Guess what? It’s not a zero-sum game.

The Charge of Feminism
AKA You believe men and women should be treated equally, you must be a feminist. One of the most annoying ones, especially as a term is already in place to describe true attempts at equality: Egalitarian. Calling someone a feminist doesn’t make it so, and is getting to the point of being an ad hominin attack. Sorry, just because I have a clitoris does not mean I agree with feminist thought.

The Charge of Malcontent
AKA You’re just being a shit – stirrer. Usually used when I ask questions regarding deeply held or typically encountered beliefs about gender vs sex, or differences in brain chemistry, or even just division of hobbies/interests among the sexes. What I find to be absolutely bizarre is if you question X, people will automatically think you believe Y…when this isn’t the case at all. Maybe it’s due to my time on my school’s debate team, but I’m fully capable of listening to both sides of an argument and arguing for either side. Trying to get people to question their beliefs and actually come up with logical reasons for believing them (rather than taking the easy way out and pointing at just their own experiences as evidence) can be very rewarding. Sometimes new information will come to light that others in the group hadn’t considered before, or maybe we’ll find that despite the odds, we’ve all encountered the same. Yet it seems this also has the potential to upset people, as though they prefer to live an unexamined life of stagnant thought. Curious…

The Charge of Shaming
AKA You hate/shame men for showing weakness. When I say that men shouldn’t stay in abusive or unloving relationships, I’m “shaming” them. When I say that men shouldn’t be used by the women in their lives, I’m “shaming” them. Even if I say we need to teach men that they have inherent worth outside of having relationships with women, apparently I am “shaming” them. Will someone please explain how this is, when numerous males in the manosphere say the exact same words yet aren’t accused of shaming their fellow men?**

The Charge of Attention-Seeking
AKA You only talk about your experiences because they’re different. *Sigh* No, I talk about my experiences because they’re mine. Who else shall I speak of? I refuse to mindlessly agree with everything someone says is “True”, when my own life has shown otherwise. I don’t follow Team Woman just because I have a vagina, and I don’t follow Team Man just because I think like them. If this means creating my own path, so be it.

The Charge of Subterfuge
AKA You’re a spy. Now, who exactly I’m spying for I’ve never been told. Perhaps they believe there’s secret cabals of women who lurk in the shadows, cackling and wringing their hands, waiting for me to return with information on how to snag unwilling husbands? I’ve never understood this one…it’s not like many manosphere blogs or forums are password protected. Why would anyone need a spy, when they can just go read for themselves? It’s utterly nonsensical.

The Charge of Repressed Femininity
AKA You are capable of being feminine, you just don’t want to be. This is the only one that has any actual merit. Yes, I can pretend to be feminine…but so can any man. I can wear dresses, put on makeup, be dainty, speak quietly and demurely, let men pay for all my meals, and be the perfect woman. Heck, I’ve never had a fertility test, but it’s likely I can get pregnant and give birth/breastfeed. But in doing so, I’d be lying…not only to myself, but to everyone around me. At least with the way I naturally dress, speak, and act, most people assume I’m a tomboy and don’t treat me like a “lady” (and if they try to, I inform them I don’t like it). Denizens of the manosphere don’t quite grasp the concept of someone who is able to have the world on a silver platter, but specifically asks for a ceramic plate instead. I blame society, where most people, men and women alike, try to use every advantage they can to get ahead to the point it sounds like a fairytale when you hear of a female who declined using her female-specific school grants and signed up for the Draft with the other guys in her class. But it shouldn’t…that’s what equality is, and that’s what I’m all about. I can’t give myself a male body, but I will do everything in my power to topple the pedestal my female form gives me.

** I’ve actually done an experiment with this, to determine if it’s my message or my sex that is “bad”. For example, about a year ago, I posted on a YouTube video about female-on-male rape that men should tell their female partners about the crime committed against them (when they are comfortable enough to) because keeping it a secret has the potential to affect the relationship, create a gap in their intimacy, and even stress him out to the point he’ll have flashbacks during sex which can cause even more mental anguish if she doesn’t understand what’s happening or how to help. Well, from the resulting comments you’d have thought I kicked a man in the balls. I was told it was a horrible idea, that I only wanted to make rape victims ashamed of what happened, that it was impossible to find a woman who would care, and that I enjoyed seeing men shamed by their partners. Needless to say, I was shocked by these accusations…but I noticed one thing. Nearly half the comments made reference to the fact I had a female screen name and that this should disqualify my statement outright. So I waited 2 weeks, signed into my male screen name account, and posted the same message with minor rephrasing. This time, it received applause and up votes, with only one detractor.

I’ve often wondered if I should just let people believe I’m a man until they visit my blog, but that that seems dishonest. I’d rather be accepted for me being me than a lie. The problem is, people initially judge based on looks (irl, it is the first thing they notice about you, after all) and I’m unfortunately a female, and a feminine voiced/bodied one to boot. This may seem like a good thing to some of my readers, maybe even most, but for me it sucks. People go out of their way to compliment me…when I haven’t done anything special. Guys try to carry packages for me…when I can deadlift 70 lbs. Every time someone praises my body it should feel good because I take good care of it…but they always phrase it in a way to inevitably remind me I’m a female. The number of times alone that I’ve been told “you’re so good at your job/talent…and attractive too!” is sickening. All I want is to be valued for my work ethic, my compassion, my empathy, my personality. The things I do are a much better indicator of me than my mere looks, and they are what I’ll keep when my looks finally begin to “fade”. Were that I could be appreciated for what I’m capable of rather than just the fact I exist as a woman!

Related Posts
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/egalitarian-does-not-mean-misogynist/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/makeup-cosmetics-no-thanks/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/02/08/tiny-barbs/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/the-poem-that-is-my-compass/

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50 thoughts on “Being Gender Dysphoric In The Manosphere

  1. I’m too tired to produce the response deserved by this post. I see the pain and I sympathise with you. I think that you’re reaping the whirlwind sown by the lies of feminists, trad-cons and white knights. Unfairly, but that’s what you are experiencing.

    Please let me sleep on it. I see your pain, but I want my response to be more objective than ‘there, there’, which is not the response that you want or deserve.

  2. Rest well, Spawny. For my part, I finished this last night and set it to publish today since I’m at work (lunch break, currently). So I wouldn’t be able to engage in lots of conversation anyway.

    I appreciate you, regardless of what you say or if/when you say it.

  3. Oh Sophia. Wish I had something uplifting to offer. I’d say:

    1) Pick your battles. Some people aren’t going to like you and/or agree with you and it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with you personally. No one knows what you’ve experienced, or what is on your mind except you. Even when you attempt to explain it, and even when you explain it well, the majority of people still probably won’t understand where you are coming from, and there isn’t anything you can do about it.

    2) Rejoice in the fact that you have independence of thought. That means you are a thinking person and not a sock puppet or pundit.

    and
    3) It’s the internet. Often the online environment can be like entering a Tourette’s ward.

    I asked my husband what he would advise you to do and he said:
    You should make a new alias as Pat, and post what you want and “that way she won’t have to fight City Hall”. 🙂

    ((hugs))

  4. Keep in mind the type of personalities you’re dealing with, too. Just speaking for myself, I can be kind of a clam.

  5. I don’t know…watching a malcontent, confused, faking, femininity repressing Feminist spy on Youtube actually sounds pretty entertaining. I might start my own channel just to play one on camera. 😛

    I think she was referring to a post she made about the video, not a video she’d made herself? That’s how I read it anyway.

  6. Francis,
    Lol, I don’t. It was just the mandatory account you have to set up to comment or save playlists. That’s all.

    Though lots of people have told me I *should* make a channel after I started blogging. I’m unsure…though if I did, it wouldn’t have any video/photos of me. I still think the feminine appearance of feMRAs is why they get so many views over their brothers-in-arms, and I wouldn’t want that to be why people watch or subscribe.

  7. I think that the only guys that might appreciate and comprehend your ideas are
    the OLDER MGTOW’s like Spawny Get and Francis. It’s simply not realistic to
    expect that the typical “icel” or social outcast, can appreciate or understand where
    you are coming from. For many, it’s a non stop “pity party,” and it’s ALWAYS the other
    person’s fault. To, them you are the “enemy,” and couldn’t possibly understand their
    plight. Or why in the heck don’t you offer yourself up to them to elievate their pain?
    Oh wait, you did contemplate doing that, but you couldn’t bring yourself to do it.
    From the film “Cool Hand Luke,” “It’s a failure to communicate. Some men you can’t
    reach.”

  8. Reblogged this on Spawny's Space and commented:
    I’m thinking of making a post about the issues raised by Tarn’s latest post. But as of right now, I don’t think that post will be about Tarn herself. We shall see when it emerges, perhaps.

    In the meantime, I think that Tarn is right to risk getting a bit ranty. See what you think of her points. (Comments there, this is her story after all)

  9. Missattempts,
    I did indeed contemplate trying to “offer” myself to an incel/older virgin guy. He was my first date since high school, and I had a good time. I made sure to pay for our meal as well, as I know that’s something most women wouldn’t do.

    I was actually still willing to give him oral sex as a closer to our date, but he could tell I’d be doing it out of kindness, not real desire, so he declined. On one hand I was “upset”…casual sex isn’t something I’d ever done, and I’d basically spent the prior 2 weeks pumping myself up to do it. But obviously, I was also relieved for the same reason. I wish I *could* engage in casual sex, but it’s still too scary for me. I hate how that sounds, because it seems like I’m afraid of men (which is untrue to the extreme). But most of the time people don’t understand how I can be afraid of something as basic as touch.

  10. Hi tarn, I have been thinking about this unique situation you are in as well. I have never disbelieved your experience, after all who am I to do so? I would imagine it is difficult in ways I can’t even forsee, you straddle both gender yet do not have the female body/female mind one nor the male body/male mind one, either, and perhaps face resistance from both as far as being “one of’ team female or male or being on both “teams.” Not that there are teams, we are ultimately all people just as citizens of whatever country are also citizens of planet earth. In the end we all only have our own experience, and are all consciously or unconsciously viewing the world accordingly. If others agree or disagree w what “you” feel, in the end it’s still what “you” feel regardless if they understand it or not. I think too at times people may just be viewing through their lens, not intentionally trying to offend, just not knowing. If I have ever done so my apologies, I know in my writing I do make some pretty heteronormal and frankly american-centric assumptions that aren’t one size fits all, but don’t mean to offend or exclude when doing so. Peace! Thanks for sharing your pov, I find it interesting!

  11. “I wish I *could* engage in casual sex, but it’s still too scary for me. I hate how that sounds, because it seems like I’m afraid of men (which is untrue to the extreme). But most of the time people don’t understand how I can be afraid of something as basic as touch.”

    This is what I don’t get. And I don’t want to dogpile here, but seriously…Sophia, it’s NORMAL for a woman in particular not to want to have casual sex. The fact that we have some weird new social acceptance where bed-hopping is tauted, and women who engage in casual sex are celebrated on shows (like ‘New Girl’, ect) does not make it normal. It’s actually very very ABNORMAL for woman to want casual sex. Doesn’t mean they don’t do it, doesn’t mean some women like it…but it isn’t a normal, or healthy type of sexual experience and the availability of birth control and antibiotics doesn’t combat millenia of evolution.

  12. Seriously…what is with the need to label not wanting to have sex with a person you’ve never met and barely know as something lamentable and wrong with you somehow? It would be far far weirder if you were okay with it.
    Okay, rant over.

  13. This must be frustrating, but remember that a lot of that has nothing to do with you. It’s rather about their attempts to understand what they are looking at, and place you into some category that fits best. Don’t take it to heart.

  14. Liz,

    I agree. You can’t make yourself act “sexually rationally” without causing mental pain to yourself. It doesn’t matter that the new guy is STD-free, non-dangerous, you have birth control and condoms… if you’re not feeling him, the experience won’t be anything more than tolerable.

    And since Tarn is not really a woman, I will add that this trait obviously varies within each sex. Some people just don’t enjoy casual sex with many partners, no matter how morally right they think it is. So even if members of your sex/gender are slutting it up and you don’t, it doesn’t mean something is wrong with you. Many people are most comfortable with one at a time, or take a long time per person to get ready for sex.

  15. “Some people just don’t enjoy casual sex with many partners, no matter how morally right they think it is. So even if members of your sex/gender are slutting it up and you don’t, it doesn’t mean something is wrong with you. Many people are most comfortable with one at a time, or take a long time per person to get ready for sex.”

    I’d argue that a good many people who are slutting it up are not necessarily as into that lifestyle as they would appear to be. If they were, they wouldn’t have to get so stinking drunk to do it. How many women have drunken one night stands? About as many as have one night stands. Then they regret it. Then they blame the person they had sex with.

  16. Liz,

    It’s true that those women sometimes regret the casual sex they engage in, but they are still doing it, while someone like Tarn is not. To me, it tells that perhaps, they still find more fun in it than Tarn would have found. At least, they are not scared of it. Many get validation and thrills out of it, I think.

  17. @Liz and Emma

    I don’t believe I’d necessarily have fun or even that much physical/sensual satisfaction from having casual sex. However, if I was able to, I’d be able to help some of the men who are incels/older virgins. Perhaps I’m overly empathetic, but I have a real problem with knowing there are guys who have never known physical intimacy. I would offer them temporary pleasure and acceptance if I could…but I can’t without harming myself.

    That’s why I wish I could have casual sex.

  18. I just think about how much it hurt, on not just a mental but a (likely psychosomatic) physical level to be touched without warning. Even today, I freeze up and have trouble dealing with either sex randomly hugging me or giving prolonged handshakes.
    Then when I read about men who are 35, or 55, or older who are still involuntary virgins, I cannot help but empathize with their lack of love and acceptance as a full human being with sexual needs. I imagine, that if I feel Z from *being* touched, then they probably feel A from being *not* touched. And if it is the same “hurt” that I experience, only reversed, then my spirit cries out to help fix it even as my body cringes from the idea.

    Seems I’m an alphabet soup of contradictions…

  19. Your male mind protects your female body even more than a woman protects hers. I wouldn’t be surprised!

    Lots of young women fall into promiscuous ways. Men want to protect me against it. They don’t realize, I’ll never be promiscuous!

    Your male mind is instinctively protecting you, like a man protects a woman more than himself. He will be subconsciously thinking, mogamy or nothing! He won’t like your body being touched without warning, either, like guy#1 when I’m out with him coz I trust him and guy#2 tries to touch me. Guy#1 won’t like it!

  20. I wish I could give some value but @missattempts is right, you need experienced advice! I wish it didn’t happen to you, the no-win situations you face. You do have the respect of 2 good men I know, who are very choosy in their likes and dislikes. Hope that helps! You are a very special person indeed! 🙂
    xxx

  21. Dear Tarnished,
    You are a person of contradiction! You were born on June 20th, 1984.
    Your Sun sign is in Gemini, and your moon sign is in Pisces. Equal parts head and heart.
    You should check out the book “Cosmic Astrology.” (20??) It’s not only about
    Western Astrology but Chinese Astrology.
    BTW, You are under no obligation to “save” the world. Your best contribution to the
    world, strangely enough, would be the healthiest version of yourself.

  22. Well, I don’t believe in “new age” stuff like astrology, but I appreciate and recognize the idea that I’m not obligated to save the world. Regardless, I care about others, even people I’ve never met in real life, and desire to help them however I can. The reason I try to sympathize with incels is the same reason I bought a sandwich for a homeless man every day I was at Gencon, which is the same reason I volunteer at the SPCA and donate to The Wounded Warrior Project and the Vasagel site. It’s not that I just want to make the world better, but that I feel driven to. If we don’t care for and about one another…who will?

  23. You’re including MRAs and MGTOW in the manosphere, and that is incorrect. Take the charge of shaming. The problem with that is that the MRM and MGTOW are anti-shaming, but the manosphere is pro-shaming. When you try to combine two things that are opposed to each other, it is not going to make sense. You’re acting like the manosphere is pro-men and boys which it isn’t.

    Beyond the unique manosphere problems, everything you have described has been a real problem that MRA and MGTOW sites have had to deal with many times over. (Although I would use entryism rather than the word subterfuge.) In particular, things like this have been a huge problem:

    It’s as though they believe that in admitting sexism against females still exists, that sexism against men doesn’t. Guess what? It’s not a zero-sum game.

    That’s how that argument gets used. “Women have problems too” becomes “women have it worse” or “only women have problems” very quickly. Personally, I have seen this happen many times on many different MRA and MGTOW sites. And for that matter, why are you trying to convince MRAs and MGTOW that women experienece sexism? Any example you come up with will either not exist, be a hypoagency scam on the part of women, or is men defending themselves against misandry.

    From the way you describe it, you haven’t been acting any different than many other women who go to MRA and MGTOW sites who do the things they complain about. If you don’t act different than those women, how do you expect men on MRA and MGTOW sites to be able to tell that you’re different?

  24. I’m not going to take the bait Black Pill. Tarn is a wonderful example of a human
    being. If you would allow me to post on your blog instead of being so terrified of
    free speech, I would adress those issues there. Simply inform me if my comments
    will ever again be permitted on your blog. On this blog, I honor Tarnished by only
    posting on topics she permits. I check out your blog now and then so let me know.
    BTW, Tarnished, Isn’t wicca a “new age” belief? I know it’s not “new,” like many
    other “new” age beliefs are not new, it’s “nature worship,” correct?

  25. BP, you know from my time on your own blog that I do not act as a typical female commenter.

    And I am not going onto any mgtow/mra blogs or forums attempting to convince anyone of sexism against women. That’s not the point of those spaces.

    I just get tired of being told that in order to “prove” I support males, I have to say that there is *no* sexism against females in this world when there is. I’m fine with agreeing men have it worse, because they do. But to say that members of the female sex never encounter sexists who look down on them or treat them negatively purely for having a vagina is just as incorrect as saying “misandry doesn’t exist”.

    *That* is what pisses me off.

  26. BP, you know from my time on your own blog that I do not act as a typical female commenter.

    I know that, but someone who doesn’t know you doesn’t. If I read this post without knowing you, it would read like one of the many entryist women who have gone to a MRA or MGTOW site to try and make said sites all about themselves or women’s supposed problems. If you sound the same as other women, then you will be treated the same.

    I just get tired of being told that in order to “prove” I support males, I have to say that there is *no* sexism against females in this world when there is.

    Who is telling you this? Context matters here. Beyond that, the problem is that “women have problems too” has been a hallmark of every female entryist into MRA and MGTOW sites. Every single one.

    But to say that members of the female sex never encounter sexists who look down on them or treat them negatively purely for having a vagina

    I can’t go anywhere on this planet without masses of manginas fawning over women. This is a problem that can even infect MRA sites. Where are these anti-female sexists? It would be a nice change of pace to the masses of manginas out there.

  27. If you would allow me to post on your blog instead of being so terrified of free speech

    Slander hasn’t been regarded as free speech for as long as the concept has been around. And slander individuals including myself is what you do. I am in no way required to provide a platform for you to slander myself, Jewish men, or men with autism or aspergers.

  28. BP,

    Okay. I can appreciate that. But I didn’t necessarily write this for “new” readers. I wrote it for me to get it off my chest, and for people who know me. I wager that new readers would be confused anyway, unless they continued on to read my other gender dysphoria posts. It’s not something common, after all…I believe it only affects approximately 2% of the population. Nature doesn’t often make mistakes.

  29. I wager that new readers would be confused anyway, unless they continued on to read my other gender dysphoria posts.

    Since this is the case, then it stands to reason that men on MRA and MGTOW sites would be similarly confused. Without context, I don’t know how you came off on those sites. However, given the way you describe it, it seems likely they would have had a similar problem. If you didn’t give them anything to show that you were different, those men aren’t going to have reason you aren’t like the many other women who have attacked them with language that sounds similar to what you were using.

    As an aside, I think it’s telling that the reaction to this piece can be summed up as, “Yep, MRAs and MGTOWs are all broken men.” I would think people here, in addition to myself, would have a better grasp of the MRA and MGTOW perspectives, but I guess not.

    In the business world, there is still subtle sexism.

    How would you know? Even if there was, it would be drowned out in all of the affirmative action programs for women and all the other ways business bends over for women, both voluntary and forced to by government.

    Besides does it count as sexism when a business is afraid of hiring women or dealing with women because of the potential for law suits and other legal problems? I will admit that exists, but I consider that self defense not sexism.

  30. Yes, sometimes they are. Like I said, some have all out accused me of being a spy…I can’t remember his exact wording, but one guy on M3’s blog said “I have no clue why you’re pretending to care about men’s issues or why you write like a man…but I don’t trust you.”

    When I’m first commenting on a blog or forum, I take pains to be exceptionally polite. I don’t begin to act casually until it seems everyone is comfortable with me there. If I encounter a space where nobody responds or I’m told I’m not wanted, I simply move on. You can probably even see how my initial comments on your own blog are different than how I interact with everyone now.

    Oddly enough, this post wasn’t brought on by anything a moderator or blog owner said…in fact, it was really out of the blue as it came about from a huge miscommunication from a fellow commenter whom I had always previously gotten along with. As Spawny pointed out, I had inadvertently “INTJ’d” myself by speaking too bluntly. Obviously I apologized for my own part in the miscommunication.

    I’m not talking about gross sexism like in your examples…I don’t see how that can exist towards women anymore. A great deal of that part of the business world has been completely feminized. The sexism I’m referring to is on an individual or small group level.

  31. I can’t remember his exact wording, but one guy on M3’s blog said “I have no clue why you’re pretending to care about men’s issues or why you write like a man…but I don’t trust you.”

    So you were talking about manosphere sites, not MRA or MGTOW sites? If so, that explains the problem. The manosphere, despite its name, does not care about men and boys. There’s a reason why I and many of the commenters at my blog refer to it as the so called manosphere or the manuresphere. The so called manosphere is nothing but an attempt to scam men, so anyone who actually cares about men and boys is a threat to them. That’s why you get reactions like that from so called manosphere sites. I get similar reactions. It has nothing to do with you being a woman or being gender dysphoric.

    The sexism I’m referring to is on an individual or small group level.

    Then how can it manifest itself? And if it can, how do you know it’s not self defense on the part of men? We seem to be getting into the realm of sexist thoughts that can’t be acted on, and I know you’re not telepathic.

  32. M3 is a mgtow, and was an incel for over a decade, so I believed his to be a mgtow site. Do you disagree?

    I had thought that the manosphere you spoke of involved mainly the PUA/tradcon sites. Even so, why would they react the same way towards you? Is it in regards to the fact you’ve “left the system”, and thus can’t be used anymore? Or is it something else?

    It manifests in small ways.
    One example: Being pat on the head like a child when I give a good idea in a business discussion instead of a clap on the back or an smile/acknowledgement like my male coworkers/colleagues get. It’s a subtle, quick, and physically non-harmful thing, but it sends a message that I am on a lesser/different level. If it was done in a joking manner, or to a male coworker as well every once in a while, I’d laugh and have no issue with it…I don’t look for potential sexism everywhere I go like some do.

    Another example: A 50+ year old distributor I know shakes the hands of all my male coworkers, but insists on kissing the back of mine. He does this even though I’ve politely and calmly asked him specifically not to because it sets me apart from my fellow managers, but then will actually pout when I do not offer my hand at all.

    I am not telepathic, but I have a difficult time seeing how either one of these examples could dwell in the realm of self-defense.

  33. I should note that these examples are only 2 of a larger number, but they don’t occur all the time. It’s not as though I experience sexism very often, and it is usually fleeting rather than the relatively permanent sexism that occurs against men. However, it is there.

    I’d prefer a world where every man and woman is treated as similarly as humanly possible. Same responsibilities, same benefits, same opportunities to prove oneself. No quotas, no financial assistance based on sex, and no “old boys club”.

  34. I thought M3 was pro-game so not a MGTOW.

    What you’re describing are things that only “sexism” in the sense that they’re intended to be pro-female, and men don’t get them. Those guys just think that the tradcon way benefits more than the feminist way. They don’t think women are inferior.

  35. How is patting someone on the head, as though they are a small child or dog, a “benefit” of any kind? It’s incredibly patronizing. Would you appreciate it if the same was done to you? Can you honestly tell me you wouldn’t find that sexist?

  36. Here’s another example: I have been told by a guy from another gaming store, in a serious/non-joking manner, that it’s “inconceivable” I can change the 72-pins in NES systems. When I asked him why, he said that women cannot do anything with electronics the right way, and he doubted the consoles would work unless a male had helped me.

    This isn’t a tradcon. This is a jerk who is sexist.

  37. How is patting someone on the head, as though they are a small child or dog, a “benefit” of any kind? It’s incredibly patronizing. Would you appreciate it if the same was done to you? Can you honestly tell me you wouldn’t find that sexist?

    Tradcon women do consider that a benefit. It’s part of the tradcon “male headship” nonsense which doesn’t mean that men are actually in charge, but that men are busy working for women while women are freed from work. Just because neither you nor I like it, doesn’t mean that it isn’t part of a system designed to benefit women at the expense of men.

    As for the NES example, you’re making the anti-#GamerGate mistake. Men trash talk each other like that all the time. Whatever you are gets picked on. In your case, it’s being a woman. A short guy would have his height picked on and so forth. Perhaps a behavior improvement is needed here, but you aren’t being attacked for being a woman.

  38. Tradcon women are frickin weird, then. To me, that’s patronizing. Same as if they did it because I was short, or black, or…I don’t know…only had 1 eye. Anytime you treat someone very different for things out of their control is just wrong. If it’s something they actually need to be treated differently for, like if they have Downs Syndrome and need more instructions or a simpler job, okay. (Still treat them respectfully, obviously.) But otherwise, it shouldn’t matter.

    Nah, I get trash talk. I engage in it, my friends do, even some of my customers. Like you said, context is important. This wasn’t trash talk. His eyes were narrowed, his manner dismissive, he had an actual sneer on his face…this guy was being a complete ass.

  39. Did you ever watch Star Trek: Enterprise? The were a few episodes with the Orions. In one of them we learn that Orion women and only Orion women are sold as slaves. That along with everything else we see about that Orions makes it look like Orion men are in charge and that Orion women are virtual slaves if not outright slaves. However, that’s not the case. Later we discover it’s actually the reverse. The Orion women rule the Orion men, and things like Orion women being sold into slavery is just a cover for the Orion women’s scam. The tradcons operate in a similar fashion. This is another reason why feminism exposed women’s real nature not changed it.

    I think women can’t do a lot of things too (although I can’t speak to changing the pins in a NES). Does that make me a sexist?

  40. Yeah, I remember those episodes. Pretty damn sneaky.

    I think it depends, honestly.
    If it’s literally something no woman could do, then no…that’s not sexist. If you presume that “no woman could do X”, but then meet or read about one who could, and change your opinion to “most women can’t do X”…that’s also not sexist. If a woman proves she can do X, *and* do it with the same level of skill a man can, yet you insist that she can’t because it doesn’t conform to your worldview…then that is sexist.

    Men aren’t immune to this though. I have a 25 year old male customer who works at a daycare. He’s almost ridiculously good with kids, and wants to have a large family someday. Yet people still have sexist notions of guys who desire to work with kids…either they are pedophiles, gay, or are mentally childish. New psrents also assume he is less competent than his female coworkers. This isn’t true at all, but it’s an example of sexism my customer deals with.

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