Actually, Men *Do* Like Independent Women Part 1

Or at least a lot of them would, if truly independent women weren’t so rare. It’s easy to talk the talk of being a “strong, independent womyn” but when it comes to walking the walk many women stumble and fall. Most don’t even know they’re doing it, but then are at a complete loss in the world of relationships.

Why? I’ll tell you why…

1. If you constantly have to tell people you’re strong and independent, you probably aren’t.
I see this in magazines, on dating sites, relationship blogs, and posted every day on Facebook. Women who in one post will state that they are independent, yet an hour later complain about how some man in their life didn’t drop everything and cater to their whims or needs.

Your boyfriend didn’t answer your text within 10 minutes? An independent woman would recognize that he’s likely away from his phone and go on with her life knowing her man will reply when he’s available.

Your husband didn’t rush out of his job to help you with a flat tire? A strong woman would tell her husband what happened, but then either change the tire herself or call a tow truck for assistance.

Your father told you he could only afford half your tuition so you’ll have to work while going to college? An independent woman would thank her father for any help he’s willing to give, and start job searching the same day.

If your responses are to instead hound your boyfriend by repeatedly sending  increasingly desperate texts, bully your husband into leaving his place of work to help you, or log onto Facebook and continuously bitch about how working will cut into your “college life”…Sorry, but you aren’t independent.

2. You haven’t grown up.
Okcupid, match.com, plentyoffish …name a dating site and I’ll show you a mess of women who say something along the lines of “I’m looking for a guy who can handle me” or “if you can’t keep up, you’re not worth my time”.

Ladies, what the hell is this? Don’t get me wrong, I am glad you are advertising up front that you are stuck in a high school mentality since it’ll make it easier for men to skip dating you. But the fact you believe a man would be attracted to someone who’s his own age yet still requires “handling” just goes to show your true intent. You’re not looking for a partner…you’re looking for a daddy figure.

3. You bring your work home.
Or should I say, your work personality. The always-on-time, go-getter, rat-race-winner you should not be the at-home you. I don’t care how much you love your career, the thrill you get from running your department, or how you truly enjoy rubbing elbows with others in the business world. The point is, both men and women act differently when at work than when at home…or they should. Many men complain about how their careerist wives tend to remain in a “big dog” mentality when with their husbands, instead of being the women they fell for. Does this mean you have to automatically become a submissive, non-opinionated wife as soon as you get home? No, of course not! But if your spouse can leave his job outside, so can you. The relationship you build together is meant to be a sanctuary from the hustle and bustle of the world…not an extension of it.

Next time I’ll have 3 more points to go over. In the meantime, what do you think of the ones listed above?

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227 thoughts on “Actually, Men *Do* Like Independent Women Part 1

  1. Reblogged this on Spawny's Space and commented:
    Tarn has a theory, I’m not sure where one might gather the evidence that ‘men do like independent unicorns women’ though. Comments there unless Tarn enables them here – she wrote it after all.

  2. Good thoughts, Sophia! I agree. 🙂

    “If you constantly have to tell people you’re strong and independent, you probably aren’t.”

    True dat. I’ve also found that “strong and independent” is often a euphemism for bitchy, toxic, selfish. “He’s just afraid of a stong, independent woman!” Another one is “smart”. 99 percent of the time a woman says a guy is afraid of a “smart woman” smart is code for obnoxious/argumentative/needlessly confrontational and/or just plain self absorbed.

  3. Liz,

    Isn’t it scary, just how many code words women use to conceal their true personalities? I am sympathetic to any man who has to navigate the modern dating world!

  4. 1. – Far too many women expect to have a man support them through life. They start college, discover that “it’s HARD!” and trade learning for a guy’s earning. It isn’t for nothing that the standard joke about LDS women going to college is only for the purpose of earning an MRS degree. Bottom line for most women is to attempt to follow the “traditional” relationship mode, but only as far as the economics of it.

    2. – I’m going to stick with LDS women for this one, just because they are easy targets.

    I was in Utah for a spell this summer, and ended up watching several young Mormon mothers with their broods. Their apparent (to me) age fits the descriptive, in that they remind me of the teen girls who once sat for my family when I was pre-teen. Their “men” (and I put the term in quotes deliberately) feel that they ARE in control, and DO have to keep their woman in line.

    The situation where I got to watch these Mormon women with their kids involved one kid getting “misplaced”. Daddy showed up, asked where the kid was, then chided his wife -loudly and publicly- for losing HIS child, and ordered her to go find him. While she tried (the kid -about 10- showed up on his own), he sat in his pickup listening to some sports trash talk radio show instead of looking for HIS kid.

    While she looked a bit put out by his outburst, she didn’t complain or raise a fuss. She did as she was told. Thus, she expects him to “handle” her, and cooperates with this.

    3. Women at work tend to not have to do dishes, or laundry, or cook, or any of the other domestic chores. They don’t really want to do them at home either, and expect their men (who are at least as tired after work as their women are) to do half. There is, however, a yawning disconnect between the male opinion of the necessity of most domestic chores and the distaff version, which leads to a great deal of cohabitational strife, since women aren’t willing to settle for the lower levels of male acceptance of disorder and uncleanliness.

    So if a woman has an employment situation where she gets to exert any amount of authority, she’s likely to fall into that mode at home when she doesn’t get things the way she expects them. Men won’t take that since they aren’t getting paid (in any context of the word) to do so.

    To sum things up, Women need to take control of #1 for their own security. If they should happen to marry, this puts the household in a much stronger economic condition.

    #2 requires that women actually compromise instead of creating drama when things don’t go her way. The “You can’t handle me!” comment is the same as a slap across the face with a glove. It’s a challenge to fight, only she decides when and how, and under what rules. No man can win under these terms, and fewer men are willing to take the risk of having such a life.

    #3 already has the best possible conclusion by Tarn. The only thing I can add is that women also need to stop seeing the home as a job site.

  5. Words of wisdom from blurkel, once again. It’s funny, I hear so much about how “women are turning into men”, but they really aren’t. They are turning into gross caricatures of men…If women were actually becoming slightly more masculine, I doubt it would cause the issues we see currently.

  6. “The relationship you build together is meant to be a sanctuary from the hustle and bustle of the world…not an extension of it.”

    Yep! I could handle that.

  7. If I were the marrying kind
    And thank the lord I’m not sir,
    The woman I’d wed and take to bed
    Could be an “independent”
    And I’d go hard and she’d go hard
    And we’d go hard together!
    O what fun in the middle of the night
    Going hard together!

  8. Brother Blurkel, good to see you here and still talking sweet reason! Greetings brother. Have things changed for you since we last spoke?

  9. Guilt (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)
    Padawan is humble as humble can be
    He offers an abject apology!

  10. Independent women noticeable they are.
    Fun they can be.
    But short term only.
    Women know this not.
    So path to dead end they choose.

  11. Spawny, I think something got lost in translation…I looked up “chippy” and apparently it’s a slang term for a prostitute, an overly defensive person, a fish-and-chip shop, or a carpenter.

  12. Yoda says ‘Poet Laureate himself he calls’
    (Padawan’s Outraged Response by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    Padawan is Poet Laureate indeed
    Liz said so during sweet nothings in bed!

  13. Like a mouthy teenager. Don’t get me wrong, there are capable women, but there are far more whose estimation of their own abilities has been overcooked by yugogurl and over praise from betas looking to get into her panties.

  14. From Wikipedia

    “(adj.; chippy only) aggressively belligerent, especially in sport”

    So, pushy,mouthy, in your face.

    A woman acting out how she imagines an alpha male would – supremely over confident.

    Compris?

  15. A news item in NZ today featured a young man whose net worth was approx $7500 in the red (below zero). His girl had just left him because he had nothing.

    Last night he won approx $300,000 USD in an online gamble. His girlfriend immediately contacted him to express her undying love. He had the sense to say “No thanks”.

  16. A woman acting out how she imagines an alpha male would – supremely over confident.

    Men respect confidence not.
    Respect capabilty they do.
    Opposite of Women this is.
    Project they do.

  17. Yoda I’d agree that men respect capability more than confidence in a woman. However I don’t think capability is the quality that men value most. I’d value genuine commitment to the relationship more highly.

  18. “Liz said so during sweet nothings in bed!”

    Now, now Padawan, I only gave you those sweets because Cill hadn’t told me about your sugar problem.
    And I suppose a purist could call it a bed, but we in the business call that a gurney.
    Context, please!

  19. Perhaps different men value different traits more than others? 😉
    I’d say that having a partner with confidence is good…too much makes one arrogant, which isn’t a good trait in anyone.

    Personally, my favored trait is honesty.

  20. A Shocked Poet Laureate Clarifies His Appointment (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    Of Elizabeth the Second Padawan was talking
    While the Royal Seal she on him was performing
    Him by Royal anointment to Laureate appoint!

  21. Padawan would put capability and honesty
    Way ahead of confidence,
    And if divorce laws would apply
    On the relationship ending,
    Commitment most valued of all.

  22. Its so funny how we spend so much time thinking about what the opposite sex likes/thinks. The truth is you’ll never know what the opposite sex thinks/likes. And social media has changed the dynamic such that many will never get the chance to figure their partner out, because its too easy to find someone who is more aligned with what you as an individual is attracted to. Mate selection is quickly becoming akin to grocery shopping, you now have selection not limited to geographical proximity, so you can evaluate and choose based on what you are looking for.

  23. “Mate selection is quickly becoming akin to grocery shopping, you now have selection not limited to geographical proximity, so you can evaluate and choose based on what you are looking for.”

    How is that working out?

  24. If we’re talking about one night stands, personal hygiene would be the most important. If we’re talking about relationships (personal hygiene is a “given”) other qualities would be more important than confidence for me.

  25. I don’t do one night stands, but I would agree with the whole cleanliness thing. Otherwise…ew.

    If I had to put traits in order of importance to me;
    1. Honest
    2. Stable/Dependable
    3. Respectful
    4. Compassionate
    5. Good sense of humor
    6. Loving
    7. Confident

  26. @ tarn

    True, but there’s more to people’s personalities than just those 4 items. I’m trying to delve a bit deeper…

    The combo of 4 in a woman is quite rare.

  27. Re confidence:

    Was dancing last night. One of my partners was there with her bf. He only danced with her and his eyes were on us whenever we danced. That screams insecurity. He is a very muscular man–a bodybuilder/heavy lifter. That won’t compensate for a lack of confidence on his part. She will tire of his insecurity.

  28. @ Liz, Wilson

    Wilson: Mate selection is quickly becoming akin to grocery shopping, you now have selection not limited to geographical proximity….

    Liz: How is that working out? [I hear sarcasm.]

    Two words. Phone sex. Because it’s so much more fun wanking than having real sex. Not.

    If I were “dating”, my profile intro would be: “Unless you’re into biting, spanking, pulling hair and kinky fakks in unusual places, leave me the hell alone because IDGAF.” Confidence. Abundance mentality. Hypersexuality. Fantasy. That’s what sells. Being nice, one true love, and pedestalization–not so much.

    There are people who believe in all those good qualities, but a woman has to look up to a man to be attracted to him. If he treats her as if her status were greater than his, she loses her attraction. A man can treat a woman as if she were a goddess, but he’d better act as though he were a god if he wants to keep her.

    Being nice only works if a man is edgier more than he is nice. One true love only works if he has options and a woman sees that. Pedestalization only works if the man is on a higher pedestal.

  29. theasdgamer: “[I hear sarcasm.]” 🙂

    Yes. Now, if people were completely honest with both themselves and others, the “mate selection/grocery shopping” idea would work fine (kind of like the red light district works…just select a girl in a window).

    But actual mate selection (for any long-term prospect whatsoever) is a lot more naunced than that and most people (women especially) aren’t honest about what they want, not even to themselves…it’s actually a rare woman who knows what she wants and is able to verbalize it (oh, there are plenty of women who say they know what they want…most of them have a list, but actions speak a lot louder than words).

  30. In my mystical studies I was thought that you get a return on your level.
    For example, an immature person will only attract another immature person.
    Two people of varying developmental levels will have nothing authentic to offer one
    another. And since nothing is static, one partner might grow while the other regresses.
    The more mature partner will give the other a chance to improve, but they might be
    so angry and bitter that they will place the blame on the more mature partner.
    My guru would actually be hard on the “abused” person because she chose her
    partner in spiritual blindness. (The “sleeping” condition.)
    “Why is my husband such a brute?” He IS a brute, and YOU married him!
    A “needy” person attracts another parasite on the same level. A mature person
    attracts another mature person who is dedicated to GROWTH and TRUTH, which
    in all likelyhood means he/she will eventually move on. If you are equally spiritually
    astute, YOU will not be destroyed by their departure.
    GROWTH OR REGRESSION. THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE. A book was written
    many years ago titled “Grow, Or Die.”
    Tarnished has actually done the best she can to ENSURE that she will NEVER be
    abused again! Her eyes are open enough to discern the difference between health
    and self destruction (Which is also OTHER destruction) Tarnish’s spiritual
    comprehension is on par with some of the greatest Spiritual Masters of ALL TIME.
    If I were contemplating to do a foolish act, Tarnished would be one of the few living
    person’s who might be able to dissauade me.

  31. Yes, Brother Cill, I’m still here! I’ve been down battling my annual bout of bronchitis while attempting to get to work as much as possible.

    It’s been very interesting since my last major issue. My SO has been much more agreeable to be around since she declared she’s done with sex. No fights, no drama, no hostility.

    So, yes, things are better. Under the circumstances, this is good.

    Happy holidays if we don’t connect prior! (Same to all!)

  32. @Cill

    The same happened this year to a co-worker. He hit the California Lotto for a million, and among the unsolicited offers he started getting just the next day was a call from an ex. He’d last seen her holding up the “loser” sign (right hand to the forehead with the thumb paralleling the eyebrows to form an “L”). She called and asked if he wanted to go out again. “Sure!” he replied. “Just not with you!” and slammed the receiver down.

    Ah, Instant Karma! If only it were more common!

  33. @Liz

    You are SO correct about The List!

    My daughter has a friend who was talking about her wedding plans. Everything is already selected. “All he has to do now is show up!” (She’s single, not seeing anyone, and really has little to offer a man).

  34. it’s actually a rare woman who knows what she wants and is able to verbalize it

    Verbalization not a problem that women have.
    Quality vebalization different this is.
    Liz and Tarn exceptions they are.

  35. Blurkel,

    I would buy that man a drink. Good on him! Gold-diggers, the lot of them.

    Glad to hear that your home life is getting slightly better. I’m sorry there’s no more forthcoming sex from the wife, but there do exist ways around that. I would not judge a man poorly for using them, but it may not be something you’d like/be willing to try.

    Happy holidays and festivities to you!

  36. Yoda,
    I would place Bloom in this category as well. She had a rockier start than Liz or I in terms of knowing what she *truly* wanted in a partner, but she’s certainly there now.

  37. Since we are offering up how we see women, I’d like to offer what I see women should be doing.

    I come from a family filled with RNs. While I can’t attest to current conditions, in the past I know they made very good incomes. It was possible for a woman to make enough to support herself very comfortably, even if she had a kid or two in tow. She also probably had benefits.

    There is a lot of angst in the MGTOW media about women like RNs “replacing” men. What these worry warts don’t get is that women like this have fewer needs to impose on a potential partner. As she’s already taken care of her financial requirements, this puts a potential relationship on a whole different and far more equitable plane.

    But most of the MGTOW’s I’ve read (and I don’t claim to be an expert) appear to want male privilege and control over women. They fail to see that in seeking this, they only reinforce the very things they claim to be against. They must like having that ball and chain clamped around their ankle.

  38. @theasdgamer

    I imagine it would be difficult to find each of these 4 things in 1 person. I am obviously not feminine, but I have the other 3 hands down. It is what it is.

    Spawny is going to say it’s because I’m a “unicorn” again, but I don’t look up to my lover. He’s not on a pedestal, just as he doesn’t put me on a pedestal…he’s a man, not a god and I’m a woman, not a goddess. I personally believe he has options, but he is going through a bit of a midlife crisis and is starting to believe he doesn’t since he isn’t fit/skinny anymore. The thing is, he isn’t rich or even moderately wealthy, and is in a rather dead-end job. I think I’ve mentioned before that I pay for all our outings and meals…there’s a reason for that, lol. As such, his confidence is waning.

    However, I think he has great value as a lover and mate, precisely because he encompasses the traits I listed above. Now I just need him to see himself through my eyes. Easier said than done…

  39. @Yoda

    Value?

    With money she is good.
    All my bills on time get paid.
    A great credit rating have I.

    Other than financial manager, to recommend there is little.

  40. As she’s already taken care of her financial requirements, this puts a potential relationship on a whole different and far more equitable plane.

    Many more factors there are.
    “Equitable” with most women works not.
    Men to be in charge they do want.
    Otherwise “problem with no name” they do get.
    Obfuscation reason that problem has name not.

  41. “Men like women who are pretty, sweet, faithful, and feminine. It’s really simple.”

    What does feminine mean in this context?

    I like women who are straightforward and who are not mental.

  42. @Blurkel and Yoda

    A spouse should bring love and support to the table. No one spouse should be the “rock” at all times…Everyone needs help now and then.

  43. @Tarn

    “I would buy that man a drink.”

    Diet Coke on the rocks, coming up!

    “Glad to hear that your home life is getting slightly better. I’m sorry there’s no more forthcoming sex from the wife, but there do exist ways around that. I would not judge a man poorly for using them, but it may not be something you’d like/be willing to try.”

    While I’m not out pursuing new options, I’m open to them. We’ll see what develops.

    “Happy holidays and festivities to you!”

    And a Rapturous Saturnalia to you!

  44. “Now I just need him to see himself through my eyes…”

    For some reason, this recalls “Being John Malkovich” for me. Easily one of the weirdest movies I ever saw.

  45. Love is a four letter word, Tarn. To me, hearing it said only gets my defenses up. When it comes to love, consider me from Missouri and SHOW ME.

  46. Hi tamerlame. Welcome!

    I could be wrong, but from prior comments on Spawny’s blog I think “feminine” has a lot to do with appearance and possibly mannerisms.

    Is she skillful at putting on makeup?
    Is she fond of wearing dresses and skirts?
    Does she keep her hair long?
    Does she have grace and poise?
    Those sorts of things.

    I’d fail this pretty hard. I hate wearing makeup, and will only do so for special occasions. I think I own a dress…maybe. I’m not clumsy, but I am not a gazelle. My hair *is* down to my waist, but that’s only because my lover enjoys playing with it when I’m pleasuring him. If it were up to me, it’d be short…but I am willing to keep it as is for his continued happiness.

  47. “What does feminine mean in this context?” -tamurlane

    This is the question of the age, isn’t it? It seems many women don’t really know, and many men want to impose their own interpretation.

    Since we have a few women on this thread, I’d like to hear what they have to say about this question.

  48. “I think most women are more aggressive than men in a lot of ways.” -tamurlane

    I strongly agree. But that aggression is usually only displayed toward those men such a woman would reject. Any alpha man who attracts such a woman gets an Oscar-quality performance of an entirely different person. She’s passive, submissive, and compliant – until she gets what she’s really after and he’s pissed her off. Then the makeup comes off and the real person emerges.

  49. @Blurkel

    Lol, I celebrate Yule/the winter solstice, but I thank you anyway. 😀

    Hmm. To properly show love takes a long time. It isn’t the word itself…anyone can say “I love you”. For some, this is just what you’re supposed to say, and it contains no real meaning. For others (like myself) it is a powerful phrase, almost like speaking the “name of god”. I’ve only just started saying it to my lover, and we’ve been FwB for over 8 years! Even then, I whisper it out of a superstitious fear of it losing its potency. Such feelings make one both vulnerable and strong at once. Love is beautiful and strange…

    To really “show” it is to necessarily LIVE it. You have to cherish it like you cherish your next breath. There’s no halfway, no in-between…unless they commit an absolutely heinous act, there’s no way to love someone on Monday and not on Saturday. Either you’d be willing to die for the other person…because living without them would be a type of death in itself…or you’re not.

    I can’t be sure, but I don’t think this is how most members of my sex view love.

  50. Not nonsense at all! I have seen many instances with my own eyes, and they were just checked the other day so I know I’m not blind.

    I now have to question your bona fides.

  51. Guys, just throwing this out there as a gentle reminder:

    We attack ideas here, not people. Try to reach a middle ground before getting too defensive, and remember that others may have very different experiences than yourself. My blog is for honest discussion and learning from each other, not creating rifts.

    Thank you for listening.

  52. Blurkel and tamerlame, I know both of you to an extent and can honestly say you are coming from 2 very different places. Perhaps if you state a tiny bit about your own dealings with women, and what kind of relationships you typically have, a better discussion can build from there?

    Just a suggestion.

  53. ” I don’t think this is how most members of my sex view love. ”

    Based on my experiences, I have to agree. it appears to me that her man is supposed to express love in all of its manifestations to her, while she does so only toward her offspring.

  54. Okay, he was implying that only beta males get attacked by women?

    I have seen women in relationships with “Alpha” men and get into fights with them. Some sick women enjoy being battered by violent men.

    I hate the term Alpha men to be honest as it is pseudo science nonsense.

  55. I truly think your conversation just got off to a bad start. Maybe share a little about yourself so blurkel and my other regular commenters know where you’re coming from? It’s easier to meet someone halfway…

  56. I am not being rude, or I am not trying to to. I am just calling him out on his silliness. His post came across as strange to say the least. It came across as a bit passive aggressive to be honest.

  57. Blurkel, it might help matters if you go into more detail about what you meant. Tamerlame comes from a different mindset than yourself. Or, you can just ignore each other…whatever makes you guys more comfortable.

  58. Hmm 🙂 I don’t know, perhaps it depends on what the man is looking for – a casual relationship, a fwb or a romantic partner.

    I don’t think regular men like an anxious, overly emotional woman who needs constant validation that she’s not fat, and is scared of being left or cheated on. A woman shouldn’t be like a baby, needing a lot of care and resources. She should also not be a downer to be with.

    But when it comes to romantic partners, many men say they want their woman to need them. She should be able to take care of herself when he’s busy or absent, but she should need the man emotionally, instead of just prefering him in her life.

    But that is just my impression of the majority. Could be wrong. Plus men vary.

  59. Tamerlame,

    My blog is not necessarily a “serious” place. I know you’re used to spaces such as BP’s and Stoner’s…here we tend to be a bit more open and humorous. I really do think it was a case of not understanding the others way of speaking…This is problematic for me sometimes too. The important thing now is to move past the initial misunderstanding, and carry on.

    So, let’s talk about something else. You had a decent question before: What does it mean to be feminine?

    What do *you* think it entails?

  60. @Emma

    I agree with most of your comment. But I have to disagree with most men wanting their women to need them. Some do, but they end up being taken advantage, and become resentful about that. I suspect that today’s younger men have little interest in being needed in this manner, preferring instead the self-reliant women who come and go as they please. It doesn’t interfere with the gaming that way.

  61. Great points, Emma.

    Since you’re here and a woman, any take on what it means to be feminine? A pseudo-thread is picking up further down the comment line…

  62. Playing catch up, but

    “Spawny is going to say it’s because I’m a “unicorn” again, but I don’t look up to my lover. He’s not on a pedestal, just as he doesn’t put me on a pedestal…he’s a man, not a god and I’m a woman, not a goddess. I personally believe he has options, but he is going through a bit of a midlife crisis and is starting to believe he doesn’t since he isn’t fit/skinny anymore. The thing is, he isn’t rich or even moderately wealthy, and is in a rather dead-end job. I think I’ve mentioned before that I pay for all our outings and meals…there’s a reason for that, lol. As such, his confidence is waning.

    However, I think he has great value as a lover and mate, precisely because he encompasses the traits I listed above. Now I just need him to see himself through my eyes. Easier said than done…”

    Mmm,,,unicorn? not exactly, what do you reckon to the following?

    Without knowing many details, I would suspect that you have a close to male role in the relationship. It might in fact be that you are the more male personality in the relationship. Even the male personality. It would be easier to guess correctly had we ever talked, but we haven’t. I just know that you have always come across as a rather nice guy (NO negativity in that), very logical, very straightforward, objective in reporting your reality. You would be, given the body, a very traditional good man.

    To me unicorn might be seen to mean you have a female body yet are sane, objective, mentally stable, fair minded and empathic. To a guy meeting you for the first time, you would be a unicorn.

    I think that your relationship with your boyfriend isn’t about your body, though. Mentally you are more the rock. His mental softness might have been why you managed to get together with him in the first place. I ‘reckon’ that your relationship isn’t about your bodies…except for the relentless, body shattering workload of shagging. Gotta feel for the guy.

    N.B. I am making no criticism of your lover here. I am very grateful, given your past, that you found someone who has allowed you to open up physically. I’d be glad to shake his hand and buy him a beer.

  63. @Blurkel

    “It doesn’t interfere with the gaming that way.”

    Off-topic, but I have to constantly remind myself that “gaming” in this context means something different than what I’m used to. ‘Course, that could be due to the fact I sell videogames and role-playing books for a living… 😉

  64. “I have to constantly remind myself that “gaming” in this context means something different than what I’m used to…”

    Actually, that is the kind of gaming I refer to. Two of my children are D&D gamers, and that is their principal interest and activity. Neither dates, nor cares to, yet each has opposite gender friends.

    As for the PUA gaming and other such gender-based contests, I have no use for any of that – except in my compost pile.

  65. “There is a lot of angst in the MGTOW media about women like RNs “replacing” men. What these worry warts don’t get is that women like this have fewer needs to impose on a potential partner. As she’s already taken care of her financial requirements, this puts a potential relationship on a whole different and far more equitable plane.

    But most of the MGTOW’s I’ve read (and I don’t claim to be an expert) appear to want male privilege and control over women. They fail to see that in seeking this, they only reinforce the very things they claim to be against. They must like having that ball and chain clamped around their ankle.”

    More equitable, yes. Until she as wife gives up work and sits home – what are you going to do? You will have no recourse whatsoever. Same as with sex. The law and society will line up behind her, praising her empowered arse. She does that for a couple of years, gets the divorce on the basis of her 0 income over the last few years…once divorced she can go back to work, or live off alimony / the assets given to her. There is no safe to marry woman. marriage is fundamentally, legally misandric.

    “appear to want male privilege and control over women.”
    Can’t say I can lay down the position of every MGTOW, but there is a fundamental part of MGTOW; no no no no gynocentrism (part of the reason that married MGTOW is an oxymoron except in very extreme situations*) Now I can see that that might appear as “male privilege and control over women.” in our current society.

    * – where the marriage is dead and just needs the coup de grace. Married MGTOW means that either MGTOW means nothing, or that marriage means nothing.

  66. @Spawny

    Let me tell you a story, see what you think about it:

    Last night, I was hanging out with my lover, waiting for our friends to come by later for a game of Eclipse Phase (a sci-fi rpg). I knew he was hungry, and was throwing out suggestions for where to get food before the game. He was very passe about the whole thing, and shrugged off all my ideas. He ended up not ordering anything, and just shared my meal instead.

    Afterwards, he calls me as he’s driving home to apologize for being so indecisive and unmotivated these past few weeks. Long story short, he asked if it’d be okay if I just made “our” decisions for the next month or so. In other words, I choose where we eat and when…figure out our meet up schedule…and initiate all sex.

    I am not suddenly unattracted to him now. In fact, this makes things a hell of a lot easier, especially given I know all his favorite meals and have his schedule down pat. The sex thing isn’t that different than normal…it just finally got it out in the open that I’m the “aggressor”.

    The manosphere would likely say how I’m probably going to leave him now that he has verbally admitted to needing someone to lean on and “take charge”. That his confidence is in the toilet, and without any money to keep me around, I’ll split quicker than a pair of cheap stockings. But with me, it’s the opposite. I thought it was unnecessary but sweet of him to apologize, and am both happy and relieved that he trusts me enough to keep our time together pleasant, relaxing, and humming along without his direct input.

    Honestly? I feel needed.
    And I like it.

  67. “Based on my experiences, I have to agree. it appears to me that her man is supposed to express love in all of its manifestations to her, while she does so only toward her offspring.”

    Men love women,
    Women love kids,
    Kids love pets

  68. @brother blurkel,
    “My SO has been much more agreeable to be around since she declared she’s done with sex”

    Has this made any difference to your sex life, bro? (for the better I mean)

  69. Tamerlame,

    Lol, I think BP said the same thing. Hence why he calls the Christian devil a “she”, and couldn’t grasp the concept of my polytheism being of a God and a Goddess…

  70. “I would but he is being assy.” + “I am just calling him out on his silliness”

    but “I am not being rude”

    Really?

    “I am not trying to to.”

    Now that line might be true.

    Blurkel has the history that entitles him to his views. It’s his reality.

    I don’t know your reality, I don’t recall you. Your avatar doesn’t make it clear to me whether you’re male or female even. I suspect that blurkel is in the same boat as me. Tarn’s suggestion that you share a little is a pretty good one.

  71. @Spawny
    ” Fair point, your guy is the rock when something triggers you.”

    Absolutely! I’m not the rock during those times, he is. It’s give and take. 🙂

  72. @blurkel,

    Do you mean those men want fwbs and mini-relationships? That is when women come and go. When it comes to being needed, I was mainly talking about guys who want a LTR or marriage. Being needed by a casual sex partner or mini-relationship partner might be cute to some men, but also a practical liability.

  73. “@Spawny

    Let me tell you a story, see what you think about it:”

    I think
    1) that you’re the male in the relationship. I suspected it, now it’s clear.
    2) he has turned more explicitly feminine.
    3) you are not a female personality, what the manosphere says does not apply to you.
    4) your reaction to him is what mine was to my wife. Clear leadership facilitates an easier life as long as the leader leads with empathy and love. And you do. Egalitarian regimes can work if it is a regime of leadership ability equals. If one were to view you as a woman, you would be a unicorn suitable for that type of relationship.

    That was all Tarn 101 material, was it not?

    I believe that you are now agreeing with what I said long ago about natural male roles (not binding, purely optional, but natural tendencies) in relationships…as a candidate for the male role.

  74. @Spawny

    “More equitable, yes. Until she as wife gives up work and sits home – what are you going to do? You will have no recourse whatsoever.”

    Only if he marries her. This is why I support some of what MGTOW proposes. Men are at a serious disadvantage in traditional relationship formation, and I hope to help change that.

    “There is no safe to marry woman. marriage is fundamentally, legally misandric.”

    100% agree.

    “’appear to want male privilege and control over women.’ Can’t say I can lay down the position of every MGTOW, but there is a fundamental part of MGTOW; no no no no gynocentrism (part of the reason that married MGTOW is an oxymoron except in very extreme situations*) Now I can see that that might appear as “male privilege and control over women.” in our current society.”

    I only relate some of what I read, especially from Dalrock. He clearly want male dominance. There are others.

    I also believe I agreed with you on another thread regarding married MGTOW not being possible. For once a man marries, he no longer has “his own” in any way.

  75. @Cill

    “Has this made any difference to your sex life, bro? (for the better I mean)”

    No. Like any crime, one must have means, motive, and opportunity. I only have motive at this time. Means and opportunity await further development.

  76. @Tarnished,

    I think feminine are traits more often found in women than men 🙂 They vary by culture, but some are still constant, reflecting certain average brain differences. I think being more anxious and risk-averse is feminine. Also, being more into people than mechanical constructions (judging by what boys and girls like to play with).

    But also, I think there are differences in body language and tone. And obviously appearance 🙂 Perhaps men say they want feminine women, because they want a woman who moves, sounds and looks feminine. Perhaps they don’t mind if she’s non-anxious, daring, and works in engineering like a man, as long as she’s feminine in tone, looks and movements, and has a good personality. I bet some men would even prefer it, since they hate certain feminine psychology so much (judging by manosphere comments).

  77. I don’t think we have any issues between us Blurkel, I am very sympathetic to your situation. But you don’t need anything beyond a friendly nod from a friendly brother. You know what you’re doing (IMHO). I respect your integrity and your clarity in describing your situation.

    Any time you want to post something on my blog, please do so. We both know that you are not the only guy in your situation, others may not be as collected as you are. I’m all about reaching out to those who are hurting, you bring another perspective to mine, Moe’s, Tarn’s, Farm boy and Fuzzie.

  78. @Spawny

    It was, but this is the first time it’s been so “in your face”. In all our previous time together, it’s been subtly implied or just casually accepted…now it’s not ignorable.
    I’m actually having a hard time thinking of him as “feminine”. When he talks about his 12 previous “conquests” in high school and college, or when he reminisces about the job he had previously that he really enjoyed…I see a man’s-man with an admirable, fun-loving personality, which he still has, but to a lesser degree. I wonder if his depression is having an affect on his testosterone production, or if that’s even a medical possibility. I want him to be mentally and physically healthy more than I want to be “in charge”.

    Short version: I like being needed and depended on, but not if it comes at a cost to my lover and friend. If this is what he wants I’ll gladly embrace it though.

  79. Blurkel
    “Means and opportunity await further development”
    Man I hope it happens. I feel like putting it on my wish list. I hope it happens like nothing else on Earth, bro, as payback for the senseless waste of your sexual past.

  80. @Emma

    “Do you mean those men want fwbs and mini-relationships? That is when women come and go.”

    As I observe, this appears to be the case.

    “When it comes to being needed, I was mainly talking about guys who want a LTR or marriage.”

    I don’t see nearly as many of those as I once did. When I was the age my sons now are, ALL of my friends were married. Of my son’s group, only one is about to (and there is a legal resident status for his girlfriend involved). Another is thinking about it, but he’d be wise to reconsider (not that I’m getting involved in that at all!) The remainder (6 of8 total) express ZERO interest in dating and marriage.

    “Being needed by a casual sex partner or mini-relationship partner might be cute to some men, but also a practical liability.”

    This applies to any relationship, even professional ones. There are just some people it is better to be distant from despite any necessary interactions which occur.

    I detect in you a leaning toward traditional relationships. I only wish for your sake that was realistic.

  81. “Forget me you do”
    Yoda has the Force he does
    And Padawan too, as his apprentice
    Yoda should not lonely feel

  82. Cill,

    I hope this happens for our friend Blurkel as well. Humans are not one dimensional. We have mental, physical, emotional, and sexual needs. (Some would argue for spiritual too, but I’m not touching that today.) To deny oneself due to personal preferences is one thing. To be denied due to another’s cruelty is a completely different subject.

  83. Feminine to me involves not butting heads for the drama of it. Any more than I do (and I do not). Moxie is poison afaiac. Make your case, let’s talk, then we make a decision, then we follow through without drama.

    All that make-up, hair, skirts etc…cool stuff. But there’s more to it than that. Look back to the old black and white films, there’s femininity in abundance. In fact here’s a colour one

  84. Hey maybe see it as you being the alpha male and he the beta in a gay relationship involving a gender dysphoric female bodied person and a bit kicked around by life currently nive guy male bodied cis-something guy…you know, keep it simple.

  85. @blurkel,

    Depends on what you define as traditional. I do have a LTR, but there is nothing really binding us legally at the moment. Here in Norway people don’t generally get married anyway, they just sort of live together. I don’t mind, as my situation is not a result of my man being afraid of marriage to me. I also don’t care about the traditional arrangement (man as breadwinner). I do care about love, commitment and monogamy though.

  86. @Tarn

    “…he talks about his 12 previous “conquests” in high school and college…”

    I don’t know your SO, so don’t take any of this as implying it applies to him.

    But when I was in HS, my best friend was a top scorer in the Game. He had more hot women as lovers than anyone I ever met before or since. But it was all an act. He was wrestling with being gay, and it wasn’t until he’d married one of these women and divorced her after six months that he’d come out. He was later one of the first casualties of AIDS.

    My point is that just because a guy scores a lot doesn’t necessarily mean what it appears.

    Just curious – how do you feel when he brings any of these past conquests up? My experience is that women don’t like to hear about what their men had done previously. It’s like they don’t want to risk an adverse comparison.

  87. “Feminine to me involves not butting heads for the drama of it”

    Spawny, is this “feminine” a thing of the past, something dismissed as an unnatural aberration, a design of the Patriarchy to keep women oppressed? Gone like Tolkien’s female Ent?

    I keep harping on this, I know, but I do see your “feminine” in my young cuz and in others around me.

  88. @Spawny

    “Any time you want to post something on my blog, please do so.”

    Thanks for the generous offer. I am thinking about writing something, but I’m still mulling over what I want to say. I’ll let you know if I get something worked up.

  89. @Blurkel
    I actually don’t mind, but that could be due to the fact I compare favorably to all of them.

    According to him:
    1. I give the best blowjobs. Ever.
    2. I’m the 1st and only partner who has ever agreed to try anal sex. Needless to say, I’m also the only one who still partakes in it with him in moderation.
    3. I’m willing to try anything that pops into his head at least once. So far, I haven’t found anything that makes me uncomfortable, so we have a nice list of sexual possibilities including light bondage and other bdsm play.
    4. I initiate. It’s funny, in a sad omg-what-has-feminism-done sort of way, that sometimes we’ll be doing the deed and he’ll just come out and say “I can’t believe you’re so into this.” It makes me angry, how many times he must’ve been denied. It’s not right.

    Of course, there’s something connected to all this that I cherish too. He cares about how I feel and if something hurts me (inadvertently, as he’d never do anything harsh on purpose) he stops. No hesitation and no shaming me.

    You have no idea how incredibly hot and arousing it is for me to *know*…not wish, or think, or believe…that I am safe is.

  90. Blurkel said “Thanks, Cill. Let’s just wish me luck and let karma lead me to my destiny on this issue.”

    It’s hard for me to stand back and do nothing, @BB. Karma and wishing luck are too passive for me. An inner voice is saying, “Go on Cill you slack bastard, go over and join him. Plan it out, make it a Project! Make things happen, help kick things along for your bro! It needs to happen NOW

  91. Cill, I think we need to mind the age gap though. Three decades might look a little extreme. Let’s say two decades max? I’ll try and hide my glee shame. Plus I’m not that tired of life, yet.

  92. “feminine” does exist, Spawny. That was my point.

    “ship ‘em over” There’s the small matter of your movie star good looks. I worry that you will come out with your Oscar and all will be lost.

  93. Blurkel, the editorial process would be:
    1) you write what you want.
    2) you either email me it and I publish it
    Or
    3) I’ll invite you as an author, you publish it when you want.

    Whenever you fancy.

    Cheers

  94. When Spawny met feminine woman
    He brought out his Oscar did he
    She said “O No!”
    He nodded, “It is so,
    So off man-hunting go we!”

  95. Cill,
    Yes, you have a legitimate concern there, right enough.

    My movie star virility might cause spontaneous pregnancy by mere proximity. This has caused issues in the past.

  96. Let me apologise for Padawan’s Vogonesque lines, Spawny. The quality is grates and jar-jars.

    P.S. The message in his “verse” was rubbish as well. Couldn’t have been more wrong. This is not as important as the dreadful quality of his lines, though, as I’m sure you’d agree.

  97. @Spawny

    “Words are easy, especially lies. It’s what she does that counts from a male perspective.”

    Indeed! I had to learn this one the hard way, and in one instance the lesson was close to fatal. I wrote about that on a different thread.

  98. Although, remember that movie in which you acted as a gay? When watching it some time ago, I did think to myself “There’s another Oscar gone west”. Just sayin’

  99. God Dag, Emo!

    Norway, eh? Wish I had the means and time to visit your nation!

    Your last answer gives an interesting split, in that you aren’t legally wed, yet you do desire the traditional bonding forms. I’d thus have to say that you are 50/50 in wanting tradition in your relationship. Frankly, compared to what American society wants and does, I like your version much better.

  100. Easy, Cill!

    I appreciate your energy, but I’m not up to such direct action at this moment. I’m currently trying to get my annual bout of bronchitis under control, and this is a very busy time at work. Give it some thought, and you can pitch your ideas after the holidays. I hope to be over the bronchitis and better rested by then.

  101. Blurkel 1:45 PM

    I hope the lies had nothing to do with cheating by a woman who turned off the tap on you. If you say she cheated or even so much as thought about cheating, so help me god I’ll…

  102. Victim bandwagon I join.
    Many benefits it does have.

    In the Dagobah Swamps
    A different lesson
    Did Yoda teach Young Skywalker

  103. Project Blurkel : Mission statement for Cill et al (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    Blurkel should write a post should he:
    “Blurkel’s Foray Into SMP”!

  104. @Blurkel

    Thank you, Blurkel.
    Remember though, he did put up with the year-long process of literally re-teaching me that sex/touch didn’t have to be painful or humiliating. I may be speaking unjustly, but I’m unsure how many young men my own age (21 at the time) would’ve had the desire to be with someone “frigid”. I count myself exceptionally lucky to have found my love…first as a friend, then a confidant, then a lover.

  105. @Cill

    What lies there were got told at the beginning of my relationship. I was not cuckolded, except by Time. She’s just reached an age many women reach where sex isn’t all that desired.

    As for all previous times, I just happened as a young man to be fooled by the frequency of premarital sex. I was far from knowledgeable about women, and had no idea about how sex is used as commitment bait. Had I known, I would have heeded a bit of advice a friend of a friend offered me: “Don’t marry the first girl you sleep with”. He’d left off a very vital word: “regularly”. Had the comment been “Don’t marry the first girl you sleep with regularly” it might well have gotten through to me to prevent subsequent disappointments.

    I value very much your loyalty Brother Cill. The time to act is coming, and I’ll treasure your advice at that time. For now, celebrate the holidays and lift one for me on each day. It’s time to rest and recoup, for the battle resumes soon enough.

  106. @Tarn

    You could have driven him away and prevented any such success if you chose to. I once was in a similar relationship, and I wasn’t up for all the drama it generated. That you didn’t drive him away sounds like a great topic for a future post.

  107. Okay Brother, I shall limit my proaction to the hefting of pint handles to my lips. Many a handle shall be hefted, mind, in my frustration at the delay in the launching of “Project Blurkel”. 😀

  108. “re: Project Blurkel : Don’t be surprised if I “borrow” this for my post, Padawan!” (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    In consideration for a small royalty (ching!)
    Padawan is ready to forgive anything…

  109. @Blurkel

    I don’t think it would’ve happened that way…I wasn’t angry or cold-hearted. I was scared. There’s dogs that bite when abused and afraid, of course, but the majority I’ve rescued simply curl into a corner and hope nobody notices them. I was the latter.

    It probably helped that he’d had a girlfriend who’d been raped by her step-uncle, and used to volunteer at a young adult “halfway house”. He learned how to care for broken people long before meeting me.

    Slightly ot: This makes me wonder if the reason most women want “exciting bad boys” is because they are tired of the tranquility that safety and normalcy bring. Maybe they think it’s “boring”, whereas those who have been through life’s wringer actually want it?

    Just throwing thoughts out…

  110. Yes well, I too am interested in joining “Project Blurkel”. I recently fashioned a Kauri Club that I’ve dubbed “The Persuader”. It might come in handy during the mission…

  111. “Many a handle shall be hefted, mind, in my frustration at the delay in the launching of “Project Blurkel”. :D”

    Blurkelland expects every man to do his duty!

  112. Do you accept counterfeit Confederate currrency? (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    Our choice of royalty currency
    Depends on who the next President will be.

  113. @Tarn

    I don’t think it would’ve happened that way…I wasn’t angry or cold-hearted. I was scared.

    Technically, that was the experience of my rescue attempt. Didn’t stop her from doing all she could to discourage me anyway.

    It probably helped that he’d had a girlfriend who’d been raped by her step-uncle, and used to volunteer at a young adult “halfway house”. He learned how to care for broken people long before meeting me.

    A True Rescuer! Far more drama than I’d ever have taken on! I once aspired to a similar status, but I was myself broken. As I used to teach in CPR, one has to be safe one’s self before one can rescue anyone. Had I then been so, I would have handled things very differently. Your SO has earned his reward.

    “This makes me wonder if the reason most women want “exciting bad boys” is because they are tired of the tranquillity that safety and normalcy bring. Maybe they think it’s “boring”, whereas those who have been through life’s wringer actually want it?”

    By “it” can I assume you mean “safety and normalcy”? Other than that, I think you are on to something.

  114. Our choice of royalty currency
    Depends on who the next President will be.

    Why, Hillary Bush-Carlson-Christie-Clinton-Cruz-Huckabee-Jindal-Paul-Romney-Rubio-Santorum! who else COULD it be?

  115. Why, Hillary Bush-Carlson-Christie-Clinton-Cruz-Huckabee-Jindal-Paul-Romney-Rubio-Santorum! who else COULD it be? (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    If it’s Whitewater Hilary
    It’s pack up my bags and leave town, for me.

  116. @Spawny

    Yes, I did see that post. I am split between dismissing it and trying to explain it to myself. He makes some good comments, but seems to want to lash out more. I think I’d like to hear more of what he has to say before I can settle on one side or the other.

  117. In the Dagobah Swamps
    A different lesson
    Did Yoda teach Young Skywalker

    Then that was.
    Now this is
    Professional victim I will be.
    Anita Sarkeesian I will emulate
    But better my postition will be
    Because green I am.

  118. If it’s Whitewater Hilary
    It’s pack up my bags and leave town, for me.

    Rush Limbaugh said that once. Failed to follow through.

  119. Padawan wonders of Yoda’s “postition”
    Is this a kind of Jedi’s physician?
    (or a prostate malady, mmmH?)

  120. “Telling your truth might cause further debate.”

    Are you prompting for a post? I’m willing if you are.

  121. @ Liz

    (oh, there are plenty of women who say they know what they want…most of them have a list, but actions speak a lot louder than words)

    Like women who want to be seduced so smoothly that they can say that it just happened?

    There’s some PUA shaming going on on Tarn’s blog, but isn’t it interesting that the PUAs often give women exactly what they crave.

    I could say that I feel the same way as the women do–that I’d like to be seduced in such a way that I could deny all moral agency, lol. Of course, the odds of that happening are lower than my chance of winning the lottery.

  122. Absolutely Blurkel. We’re looking at tomorrow my time to put it up, it’s 20:45 here. I want a PC to do the publishing, so tomorrow…if you want. Your convenience.

  123. @Spawny

    OK, I’ll get right on it.

    To everyone else here, I’ll be back tomorrow. Play nice like Tarn asks!

  124. Consider the request for Spawny’s email made. The article first draft is ready.

    It’s now 15:24 PST in California I’ll be off-line between about 18:00 and 02:00. PST. That is about 8 hours behind Spawny. Hopefully, sometime in that period I get a response and can ship it off.

  125. @ blurkel

    She’s just reached an age many women reach where sex isn’t all that desired.

    Ain’t no such age, if she wants the man. YMMV Mrs. Gamer chases me currently. It hasn’t always been that way. There was a time when Mrs. Gamer told me that she was done with sex. Lying through her teeth, she was.

  126. I don’t understand why this post is specifically addressing women? Shouldn’t you be talking to anyone looking for a partner? Men have problems with neediness, codependency, maturity, and leaving work at the office. These aren’t women problems, their people problems.

    I believe it’s not really an issue of independence but being an adult who is able to function as an adult and can take care of themselves. This goes for both sexes.

    Also, one of the biggest issues with the manosphere or perhaps the bloggers/sites is that there is constant conflicting posts. “Women today are too independent and don’t need men the way they used to, so society is ruined” or “Women today are nothing more than entitled princesses who don’t want to work for anything and won’t give decent guys a chance.”

    I’m also a little concerned about where you live. I’ve never experienced behavior like what you describe in posts. Maybe it’s because I’ve lived in cities all my life, but I’ve seen women countless times stand up for men to sit on buses and subways when their injured, have small children with them, or even when they’re just carrying a lot of things.

    Most women aren’t entitled, shallow princesses who are only looking for extreme “alpha” males. Just like most men aren’t useless, abusers who only want sex from a woman.

    If you’re only surrounding yourself with awful women or terrible men maybe you should readjust your social circle because there are tons of quality people out there. At some point you need to ask yourself if the problem is really everyone else or it’s you.

  127. “So you’re bitching because Liz took you for a ride on a gurney? Hah!”

    Depends on what is meant by “ride”
    “Took” means the same whatever we decide

  128. Looks like they bred the smut out of the Murikans. US other Anglo types exist on a whole different level.

    Two nuns in the bath. One says “Where’s the soap?”
    The other replies “yes it does” and giggles…

  129. Dear Something Witless,
    Femtopia sounds like a wonderful place to live. Cept for all the damn unicorns getting in the way. And the incredible mounds of bullshit everywhere. Snowcapped year round, some of them are.

    Not buying what you’re selling. Try not to inhale so often.

  130. “Where’s the soap?” (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    This kinda joke is eroded by diction
    This kinda joke is the product friction

  131. “Two nuns cycling along the cobbled streets of York. One turns to the other and remarks, “I haven’t come this way before”

    Followed by menstruals minstrels riding on their cycles, they wearwere

  132. Cockney Rhyming Slang (by Padawan, Poet Laureate 2014 – ?)

    Well let see me old pudding bowl
    Whatever is not an old garden mole
    Something not fake as an old phantom goal…
    O no it’s not you… me old furking Moll?

  133. Do any of the English or Austrlian posters here recall a song titled, “Angie Baby”
    by Helen Reddy? That’s a summation of my life, and why many of the things you
    post here are so above my head.

  134. Of all of my relationships, two stand out for their quality, and both had something in common. In both of these cases, the women insisted, insisted on being as fair to me as I was to them.

    The first of these two went out of her way to invite me to places, to pick me up, sometimes she paid, sometimes I did, sometimes we both did. When we got into a deeper relationship, she expected “man things” of me, and did things because they were “woman things.” I might have refinished her basement, but she paid for the materials. I might have kept our yard in shape, but she insisted on feeding me. I killed spiders (I just carried them outside, really) and she rubbed my back when I was sore.

    The second one I met at a dance club, I asked for her number, she refused, and asked for mine, I gave it to her and forgot her. She called me. We agreed to meet for coffee. She insisted in paying for the coffee and croissants, “You can get it next time.” I remember lighting up like a Christmas tree. Throughout our relationships, when we had supper at my place, she brought groceries with her, and she was consistent. She also brought groceries to her sister when they were having a party. This wasn’t a show, this was who she was. She was honest with the good, and the bad, and everything was about authentic communication and mutual well-being.

    In both cases, they took their lives, their relationships with me, and others seriously. They were thoughtful, kind and genuine. Both were quite clear on the fact that I was a man, and that they were a woman, and that we were both responsible for our own live first. Do not mistake this for “traditional conservatism.” One was a high-powered career woman, the other was a country girl who both did for themselves, but who actually wanted to share a life. We agreed that “We are on our own path, but we choose to walk beside each other.”

    These were strong and independent women, because they were strong and independent people.

    And I actually like that. A lot.

  135. That is the thing, they aren’t unicorns. There are tonnes of good women. What this comment didn’t list was the 20-50 other women that I discarded to find each. And of course, it doesn’t go on to describe the basic human issues that accompany relationships. One will never find a perfect person, or a perfect relationship, but one can find people who are doing their best to live as well as they can, and that respect themselves and others as a primary value. I think that what really made the difference, was that both were proactive in their own lives, and so set up the circumstance to create good relationships. That is what made them strong and independent.

  136. @missattempts

    This Yank remembers the song being #1 on our radio stations. I’m looking up the lyrics.

    Make-believe world? Disappearing neighbor boys with bad intent? Sounds like the making of a good novel there. You should write it!

  137. Go right ahead. I am not MGTOW because I avoid women, but because of the laws and cultural circumstance that make things hard. Those 20-50 that I discarded? “Cultural circumstance.” The two that I mentioned? Life changing. We’re still friend and speak regularly, by the way.

  138. Yes, I’m single now. The reasons for the breakups had nothing to do with abuse of any kind, simply that overtime, that despite being excellent people there were certain needs and wants that weren’t being met. These, are basic per-relationship coupled human issues that I choose to keep between myself and them.

  139. @Tarn & @theasdgamer.

    If “King Frank” refers to me (what an odd moniker) no, I don’t have children. I wanted them very much, but there were issues. The first is that I had promised myself that I’d only have children when I’d gotten over the product of an abusive childhood, the second was that I saw men who were ripped apart by the family court system, and the third is that I know what divorce does to children in those circumstances. Had it not been for the laws and insta-divorce culture, I likely would have risked it. If things magically changed now, culture and law, I might still risk it, despite being in my fourties. But that ain’t gonna happen.

  140. Sorry to hear that. I can’t truly relate to the desire to have kids (heck, if I found out I was barren it’d be a relief), but I sympathize with those who want yet cannot have, for whatever reason.

    If I may, was single parenthood not an option for you? A big topic in the manosphere is the creation of artificial wombs, which will supposedly allow single/unmarried men to have kids without needing a woman at all. Personally, I’d think adoption would be easier.

  141. @Tarn. Well, we don’t have artificial wombs yet, and surrogacy is essentially the same as marriage from the legal standpoint of taking a risk where one can have the child taken away at the mother’s whim, and have to pay for not seeing the kid, and still having one’s life’s financial circumstances stormed though changing the landscape of one’s life.

    Adoption is also fraught with sexism and prejudice. From their perspective, there’s only one thing worse than a gay couple adopting a child, that is a single man doing so. Remember: we are rapists and pedophiles without due process. Why would a single man want to have a child, unless it is to sexually abuse the kid? Love, nurturing, caring for children? Only women can do that. They are pure and motherly, men are dangerous and rapey.

    That aside, what I would have wished for is a family, that is, a couple who raise children, see them off to university, their first job, their own children and to finally die on the front porch rocking chair with a pipe in my hand and a drink on the table.

  142. Francis Roy,
    “I am not MGTOW because I avoid women, but because of the laws and cultural circumstance that make things hard.”

    Your position sounds similar to mine. I read your comments with interest.

  143. Have you seen this? http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2014/7/29/beauties-in-beast-mode
    I thought it was an intriguing explanation for why some men encourage their women to gain muscle. It was linked after someone complained that her boyfriend pushed her a bit too hard and he couldn’t understand why she couldn’t keep up with him, strength-wise. To summarize, the article says Americans work too many hours and don’t have time to have a relationship, hobbies and same-sex friendships. So some men combine all three, and try to turn their girlfriends into mini-men. Perhaps this is “the perfect woman” for many men – feminine in looks, body language and voice, but masculine in interests and to some degree, personality.

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