Merry Part

This is my last post for the forseeable future, all. I’ll still be around commenting, but even that I’m going to try to keep to a minimum. People are still free to read and leave comments, and I can still be reached by email if anyone so wishes, but a break is required to preserve my sanity. I will not be checking my blog more than once or twice a week, so if it takes me a while to respond, don’t worry.

Why am I doing this? Well, as I’m sure some of you know, the manosphere can be a toxic place. There’s a lot of negativity, towards women of course but also towards various types of men…the opposite of the feminist sphere, as it were. There’s little, if any, place for true open discussion: You’re either for men, or for women. No egalitarians or humanists need apply seems to be the dish of the day regardless of where you are online.

But this wears you down if you surround yourself with it everyday. Or maybe that only happens if you give a crap about your fellow human beings? If you already believe we’re going to hell in a handbasket there’s no reason to work for change. Just sit back and reap the benefits you can and let the rest burn.

Well, that’s not me. I don’t want to let anything burn unless it means that the regrowth can start right away…but it’d be better if it didn’t crumble at all. The system needs fixing, not a demolition. I’m going to take a week or two, get my head back in a postive place, and actually see about doing things in real life again. Volunteer more, throw myself into getting my business proposals done, play my videogames and read my books, get egalitarian discussions flowing with like-minded folks, do some research I’ve been holding off on. In other words, living my life while being the change I want to see in my community. Working for equality for everyone, not just one sex or the other.

So, here’s a goodbye for now. I hope all of my readers continue on their own paths to the best of their abilities, and that they succeed in whatever they do. I must now attempt to do the same.

Oh, and remember:

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253 thoughts on “Merry Part

  1. ” seems to be the dish of the day regardless of where you are online”

    Tarn, you can dish on me if you desire. My dishiness is tantamount to that of a five star restaurant. (or so I’ve cum to believe)

  2. I completely understand, I’m exactly where you are at. I’ve been pondering this for myself all this week. Even as the notice for this post was entering my inbox, I was formulating a post about leaving social media behind.

    Doesn’t matter how reasonable one tries to be, social media in general just seems like the place where everyone lets go of their inhibitions, and indulge in their baser instincts.

    I’ve tried triple checking my critical thinking skills, my means of expression, of refraining from leaving messages, of leaving only positive comments, of being attentive to what I say, both in terms of message and social sensibility, it makes little difference.

    Any attempts at good-willed, purely adult and human conversations are subverted, and are dragged down to the least common denominator: I’m right, you’re wrong, and fuck you.

    It’s a shame, because there are people who produce excellent, thoughtful content worthy of conversation.

  3. Yes the manuresphere is “toxic.” But it’s not the opposite of feminism, it’s allot like it…

    Before it was David Futrelle calling MGTOW men “sexless losers.” Now it’s Paul Elam, Captain Capitalism and Davis Aurini.

    Also allot of low grade racists-in fact a mirror image of feminism if you ask me…

    https://dearwhitefeminists.wordpress.com/update/

    haha, someone tried to attack me by saying the only places I post is at Mr. Black Pill and my own blog. I took it as a compliment…

  4. I don’t blame you Tarn. I posted the following at a different blog, a couple of weeks back. I can’t remember what sparked it
    (think I’d read too much commentary at Rollo’s site…have to stay away from that place, although I like his articles many of the commentators are just awful):

    [i]The sphere can be a very very dark place, and a lot of people make claims boardering on the absurd and/or insane.

    That’s the reason I don’t read everything or post just anywhere. Conversation on an unmoderated forum on the world wide web is sort of like trying to drive in a major city without road rules. Doesn’t get very far. It’s more like being subjected to an abusive diatribe…but if you’re in the “in group” it can a great deal of fun to throw those brick-a-bats.

    I’ve spent enough time debating people on the internet (usually political/social issues) to know that each and every belief system has its share of adherents who come across as disturbing for any number of reasons. There are posters in every internet circle I frequent that I make sure to read, and others I skip over without bothering. In the sphere, on the flip side, there’s also a lot of brilliance. And the unfiltered candor is worth the ‘cost’ of wading through the crap screen (IMO…though not always, and when it isn’t I don’t stick around).

    Really, any time an argument is taken to an extreme with no nuance permitted, and one is forced into a false dichotomy there’s nowhere to go but the absurd. I’m reminded of the alpha/beta paradigm where I’m supposed to want to have sex with every alpha and everyone else I can’t/don’t respect or think of as human. I’m not sure where that leaves me since I don’t actually want to have sex with anyone but my husband (and the screaming masses yell “bullsh*t!” but it’s actually true…i was married very young, like you, and I’ve never wanted anyone else and the idea of having sex with anyone else now doesn’t just not excite me the idea itself makes me physically queasy). However, there are a great, great many men I respect and admire though I don’t want to have sex with them.

    In fact, I admire all men just for being men…unless and until they give me reason not to. “NAWALT!” Okay, well….one would think each and every OTHER woman with very few exceptions was some sort of narcissistic princess, eyes on her cell at all times unless and until that illusive “alpha” enters the room. No hard work for women (with very few exceptions), nothing ‘icky’ or unpleasant to mess up their nails and so forth. But I’ve worked on the floor (I’m an RN) with many many women who work 16 hour shifts…not including the one hour bus ride each way to work. They endure urinate, feces, vomit, puss, and disease on a regular basis and take care of people…and, for the most part with a few very very rare exceptions, they do a fantastic job of it. Yet, apparently, those women (numbers I’ve known not just in the double digets, but triple) don’t exist.
    (sorry, diatribe over…did I mention polemics before? Clearly I’m not immune)

    However, the sphere (aside from political issues and some social issues) isn’t just a debate forum…it’s only about 30 percent “debate”. It also isn’t for women AT ALL (this is often a hard thing for me to remember). It is designed to aid men, share ideas, and push for social and political change. The false dichotomy….which fails in debate (and drives me nuts on a personal level) is very helpful as a model for understanding how women generally operate. And when men follow this model and look at reality this way, it works. The mechanism doesn’t matter…the result matters.

    Anyway, sorry for the longwinded post. I could go on for quite a while on this. I’ve found it’s good to sometimes unplug from internet debate in general and just enjoy life. When it starts to ‘get to you’, try to pull yourself away or go to more ‘uplifting’ venues. If I could change anything about the sphere, I wish there was more levity….I mean, good spirited levity, not just schadenfreude. 🙂 [/i]

    Good luck in your business endeavors, Tarn!
    Sending happy vibes and positive energy your way! 🙂

    ((hugs))
    Liz

  5. Why do the “good one’s die young?” I knew you were the best.
    I will never post on the mannospher again! As the old song goes:
    “If I Can’t Have You, I Don’t Want Nobody Baby.”
    My last song to you is, “You Are The Sunshine Of My Life,” by Stevie Wonder.

  6. Tarn is talking about a step in a new direction, not into the hereafter.

    Tarn, continue on your own path or find whatever it is that you need to find. You will succeed.

  7. You’re welcome, Liz.

    So, some of the guys have interesting opinions over at Spawny’s, eh? It doesn’t bother me that much as I don’t think of myself as a female/girlfriend, but how is it treating you?

  8. Lol! It’s okay, Tarn. Funny…my husband is off today and I told him about that latest thread, and he agreed with what I stated. He actually said that for a man, “showing vulnerability is the height of courage”. I agree of course. 😉

  9. I did the same with “my guy”. He just rolled his eyes and said he doesn’t know why I bother talking to people like that. He’s of a like mind, that one shouldn’t be an emotional wreck, but neither should one be an unfeeling rock.

  10. I should clarify that he takes no issue with guys who want to be full bachelors, or ones who are wary of women after something like abuse, a false accusation, a bad divorce, etc. He just doesn’t understand why they’d claim that 99% of a sex is X, since it’s statistically impossible. Then again, he has had and continues to have female friends and associates that he enjoys hanging out with/talking to, so his experiences have “good women” in addition to the everyday beetches that all of us know.

  11. “He’s of a like mind, that one shouldn’t be an emotional wreck, but neither should one be an unfeeling rock.”

    Agreed. But women shouldn’t be emotional “wrecks” either. I was raised to be tough. Assuming the vulnerability is both sincere and the guy’s hormones arne’t out of whack (too many soy lattes or something), it’s not unmanly to express emotion.
    We had a thread on this a while back at JFG…I also think a lot of it is cultural. My husband is very passionate about a lot of things…far more passionate than i am. So his emotions on every level are more intense than mine.
    But again, sincerity matters. Insincere, contrived vulnerability looks a bit like this:

  12. Further clarification needed, lol. When he/we say that one shouldn’t be an emotional wreck, we’re talking about anybody, male or female (bar those who are actually struggling with severe medicated mental/physical illness).

  13. Tarnished musn’t be too hard on herself. Her cause is noble, but some people
    are beyond help. I know I said I would never post on the mannosphere again,
    but Tarnishe’s blog doesn’t strictly qualify as the “mannosphere.”
    The poor helpless ones (Myself included) just don’t get the fact that everything is
    written in the stars. Not one thing can be done to change what has been preordained.
    People are born with varying temperments and varying luck. If a person is a dud with
    the opposite sex, it’s NOT because of anything he’s done or failed to do, and it’s not
    even the other sex’s fault. It’s just his/her destiny.
    The Astrological chart has 12 houses. The houses to do with “sex” or the 5th and
    8th houses. If you have lousy placements in these houses, you will rarely, if EVER
    get the type of pleasurable sex that most people crave.
    This is specially so with the 5th house of pleasure. The natural planet to have in this
    house would be the Sun. Anybody lucky enough to have the Sun in the 5th will be
    blessed by sex, winning in gaming, creativity, and children (IF they want them.)
    If you have opressive planets in this “fun” house, you will struggle to get sex. In no
    way could you be a PUA. Sex, can never be a “casual act” for you.
    The 8th house also pertains to sex, but in more of a long range “idenity” way.
    For example, Tarnished says she is actually a man trapped in a woman’s body.
    An examination of her 8th house, would hold the key to why she feels that way.
    Also, “sexually deranged” serial killers have letheal placements in thier 8th houses.
    So what to do if you have a planet like Saturn, (“The Great Taskmaster”) in the house
    of pleasure? Always know that casual sex will always be a struggle for you. Don’t
    blame the opposite sex. They can’t help the way they react to you. Be prepard to “buy”
    sex if you must. Make an honest appraisal if you want to live in state of neverending
    torment. There is ONE option you know. The same option that is avaible for
    everyone.
    To aid you in not hating, you should listen to Kenny Loggins songs. The best one is
    “Heart To Heart.” No one could hate ANYONE after listening to that song.
    If Tarnished should see this, I’d like her to listen to the song, “Patches” by
    Clearence Carter. I think she could relate to that song.

  14. I loved Tarnished very much. I reccomend “Yesterday’s Song’s” by Neil Diamond
    for her.

  15. ” but a break is required to preserve my sanity”

    Tarn, how are your efforts panning out in regard to the perseverance of you sanity? Is this break from posting yielding a desired outcome? Do you correlate your said sanity in any degree to your professed tarnishmentness? Will this break result in a diminishment of your diminished luster? (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tarnish)

    I wish you a favorable outcome in your efforts. Sanity can be both fleeting and discombobulatable. All the more precious when restored. I know from whence I speak.

  16. Why, just because Tarnished conducted herself like a typical Ennagram 2, and
    gave her ALL, in trying to alieviate others suffering, and trying to make the world a
    better place. SHE WILL ALWAYS BE THE CAPTAIN OF MY HEART! Another song
    for her would be, “You Take My Breath Away,” by Rex Smith.

  17. I like the song “You Are My Special Angel” better.
    She deserves what she was deprived of as a child: Loving, NON SEXUAL touch.

  18. It cannot be fixed and will not be fixed. In fact, current trends have an opposite direction. For any change to happen, it’d have to crumble. And it will.

  19. I miss her dearly, but her own welfare and achievements are most important.
    And why not just tell her you LOVE her?

  20. Because I am practicing emotional celibacy. If you asked me to engage in something other then verbalizing an emotion, I might take you up on that.

  21. A great man died the other day, but I don’t know whether you would be in a position
    to comprehend it. Percy Sledge. He sang one of the classic hits of all time:
    “When A Man Loves A Woman.”
    You see, EVERY man should have the experience of having such a connection
    with a woman that he places her above everyone and everything-except God.
    This is what we refer to as BLISS, as HEAVEN ON EARTH! Some are DOOMED
    never to have such an experience because life is unfair.
    Thank God, that Tarnished was fortunate enough to find a person that was able
    to free her from her bondage. It’s worth a King’s ransom to live a life like the song
    “Bernadette” by the Four Tops. If you cannot live such a life you are not really living.
    Suicide, is the reccomended option.

  22. “connection
    with a woman that he places her above everyone and everything-except God.”

    This is a description of codependency. The mental health malady of codependency is described in the DSMV. A good read if you haven’t yet partaken….

  23. People live for love because they MUST MERGE with another! It’s like the Yin/Yang
    circle! What is a person but TRASH & GARBAGE IF THE LOVE OF ANOTHER IS
    NOT REFLECTED IN THIER EYES?
    It harkens back to the womb. You were indivisible with your mom back then, and you
    LONG for a return to those times. The closest you can come to that is when you
    sexually merge with another. YOU NEED LOVING INTAMACY LIKE YOU NEED
    AIR AND WATER!
    Do you think for one minute that if Tarnished HAD NOT found her F.W.B, she’d be
    alive today? Dressed like the wintertime on a 100 degree day? That’s living?
    But God had different plans so Tarnished found LOVE.
    Now really, what a macarbre joke life is without intamcay. Some people DO “live”
    without it, but what the hell for?
    (Listen to “God Only Knows,” by The Beach Boys.)

  24. Varnished Sophia,

    My name is Ted
    Ain’t never been wed

    Pondering MGHOW
    Lifestyle of no more lay

    Future of mere masturbation
    Situation and phalic exasperation

    Wisdomous words can you share
    Feeling like head up my derriere

    Enough shared for now
    Picture me taking a bow

  25. Well, why not suicide? There are certain websites where people wear their
    heartache like a badge of honor. Some even try to sculpt themselves into nobel
    hero’s.
    There is no virtrue in agony. The brave and courageous to the apporiate thing.
    Suicide is RIGHT. If you are doomed to be forever alone at NIGHT.

  26. There is no virtue in agony, but there is nobility in living despite the odds. Like the late Terry Pratchett, I do think euthanasia should be legalized for those who are suffering from severe illnesses to have as another option…but I don’t think that it should take the place of honest attempts at therapy and reinvolvement.

  27. Hi there, Ted. Loved the limerick. 🙂

    Well, if you’re looking to be MGTOW there are numerous levels of it. Taking control of one’s life, refusing to march as society tells you to, and being aware of the gynocentric aspects of our culture doesn’t necessarily mean “no more sex”. Depending on what your personal needs and wants are, you could shun women completely except in social/professional settings, or only have one night stands, or just never marry but still maintain female friendships/relationships.

    The great thing about MGTOW is it’s all up to *you*. How did you find out about it?

  28. @ missattempts:

    From what I’ve read, you seem to be quite the advocate of others to opt suicide. Contrary to this you also write about love. You seem to be quite the contrarian; perhaps a malicious contrarian?? Don’t know, but at this point don’t understand how you can say what you say.

  29. Varnished Sophia, missattempts, Poseidon,

    My name is Ted
    Ain’t never been wed

    Suicide one ought not suggest
    Due to possible reality that it might manifest

    Caution calling another’s intent malicious
    As the mirror might reveal a shady pernicious

    Agonous virtue yet there may exist
    But virtuous agony is merely a puss filled cyst

    Euthanasia desperate y final
    Winding up in a wooden box padded with vinal

    Done to rid of awful pain
    Yet some this decision others disdain

    Attempted stemming from depression
    An act I highly question

    Possible mental health resulting from therapeutic path
    Reconstructing emotion in a sudsy frontal lobe bath

    Best wishes trodding this course
    Adverse shrinkial result can further remorse

    Enough shared for now
    Picture me taking a bow

  30. No one has ever answered the question about why, guys like “Rants Of An
    Incel,” “The Black Pill,” “The Wizzard Chain,” “Mickey” and that especially
    obnoxious man that refered to women as “filthy urinals” should want to live in
    such agony. I would even add “The Unfortunate Male Virgin” to that list, but I
    don’t think he’s truthful. I think he wouldn’t have a blog if he were truthful.
    There is only one foolproof deliverance from misery and it’s NOT mass murder.
    Why should I blame women if they peel off their clothes in the warm weather?
    Could I change the world? I seem to be the one with the problem.
    The promise of sex robots HAS NOT been delivered. There ARE some very high
    quality foam rubber dolls. But they retail for $ 5,000 and above. (See this mounths
    edition of Vanity Fair.)
    I missed the bus. (Not that I ever had much hope of boarding it to begin with.
    Completely deplorable Astrological chart.)
    Some others DO have luck, though not as much as the media would have you
    believe. Looks and apprioate hygeine aren’t EVERYTHING-THEY ARE THE ONLY
    THING. Some can’t even come up to the LOWEST STANDARDS. They only mark
    time on this planet. BUT UNDER NO UNCERTAIN TERMS DOES ANYONE HAVE
    A RIGHT TO TAKE AN INNOCENT PERSON’S LIFE.
    SELF DELIVERENCE IS BEST!

  31. @ missattempts:

    “. BUT UNDER NO UNCERTAIN TERMS DOES ANYONE HAVE
    A RIGHT TO TAKE AN INNOCENT PERSON’S LIFE.
    SELF DELIVERENCE IS BEST!”

    Are you speaking about yourself, or are you trying to convey this to somebody else? Are you considering suicide instead of killing others, or are you trying to tell somebody else they should kill themself due to you thinking that person might be homicidal?

  32. Oh, some SHOULD kill themselves BEFORE they kill others.
    I don’t know whether you’ved checked out Rants Of An Incel’s blog.
    He introduces us to a “brother” named “Kent” who has his own You-tube
    channel. Have you seen his lengthy postings? They make Eliot Rodgers look
    like a choirboy. If his deranged scads of hatred aren’t an indication that he is soon
    to take up a weapon and gun down as many women as he can I don’t know what is.
    Being that the only thing history teaches us, is that men learn nothing from history,
    I wonder what people will have to say when this “victim” of selfish women is “forced”
    to slaughter as many has he can.
    I don’t suppose it would do any good to try to reason with a person like that.
    He needs “hope” for a better tomorrow and since he is oblivious to the fact he is a
    madman nothing is going to change, save the fact that the death count will raise.

  33. Whenever I hear on the news that somebody killed others then them self I wonder why the person just didn’t kill them self without killing others. Perhaps we have agreement here.

  34. Because they’re cowards. Hate filled cowards. Afraid to live, but also afraid to
    kill themselves. So they take it out on strangers. They think the world revolves
    around them. Tarnished, could be in their line of fire. And that is unacceptable.

  35. COMMENT ORIGINALLY FROM SPAWNY SPACE VIA MISSATTEMPTS:
    It’s time to compile all the information I know about Tarnished and issue a
    “mini report.”
    I don’t expect Tarnished to appreciate the things I say here, or even respond to
    them. I hope she realizes that the last thing I want to do is to alienate her, but my
    love of “personality detective work” is too great to resist the effort. And I concede
    that this apprasil could be wrong.

    Tarnished was born on June 20th 1984. She was born on the Gemini/Cancer cusp.
    She has the traits of both signs. Mental (Intellectual) Gemini coupled with
    compassionate Cancer. Tarnished also has her emotional Moon in Pisces, which
    also adds to her sympathetic nature. She HATES to see suffering. She has Venus
    (The love planet) in Cancer. More evidence of a tenderhearted compassionate nature.
    I don’t know the house placements of her various planets because I don’t know the
    percise time and location where she was born. I told Tarnished about her June 20th
    birthday as described in the book “The Secret Language Of Birthdays” Tarnished
    should also look at “The Secret Language Of Relationships” by the same aurthors.
    It says that a person born on Tarnished’s birthday would have issues about being
    touched and sex in general.
    Tarnished was born in the Year of the Wood Rat. For the best info. on that read
    “The New Chinese Astrology,” by Suzanne White.
    Finally, lets look at Tarnished’s up bringing.
    Tarnished, suffered sexual abuse at the hands of her biological father and step father.
    I’m pretty sure that she was a victim of a “ring.” I’m suspect that Tarnished’s mother
    knew consciously or unconsciously that the abuse was occurring. At best, you could
    say that it was simple denial. At worse, you could $ay she was aiding and abetting.
    Tarnished seems on the best possible terms with her mother, because she
    established indepentace from her mother. By removing herself from the abusive
    situation, she can pick and chose how to respond.
    Now, why is Tarnished so sex obsessed? Why are her sexual urges so “manlike?”
    Why does she sympathsise with MGTOW and “creeps” that can’t get any? (I don’t mean
    to say that those two cataglories are the same.)
    The answer is simple:” The Stockholm Syndrome.” Many abused females are
    sexually promiscious. They identify with their abusers. Didn’t Tarnished say she
    was experiecing orgasims as young as 7? That’s also the reason that Tarnished
    is confused about her gender idenity. She is identifying with her male oppressors.
    Tarnished has overcome much and should be lauded for her victories. But, my God,
    to associate with a wack a doodle F.W.B. that encourages her to sleep with other men?
    Doesn’t anyone understand the meaning of love?

  36. COMMENT ORIGINALLY FROM SPAWNY SPACE VIA TARNISHED:
    Hey, Missattempts…

    I’m not going to delete this, as I think doing so may hurt your feelings, but I’m going to gently request that you talk on my blog about this topic, instead of here. It isn’t really a relevant topic (though we are well known for tangents here) but it *is* a downer type of comment.

    Also, my biological father was only (heh…only) physically abusive. Throwing things at us, chucking me across the room when I was a baby, punching holes in walls and ripping doors off hinges when angry, or just grasping my arms till they bruised to getc his pointment across. I do not think there was any trafficking ring involved since my paternal units hated each other with a passion.

    I do not have Stockholm Syndrome, as that is when a victim begins to identify with the thoughts and goals of their captors/abusers. I have NEVER identified with either of these men, and have been lucky enough to have other male relatives and family friends who showed me what a man is supposed to be like. I specifically stopped seeing my biological father in my early teens, and saved enough money to leave the other house before age 18 and still have enough to pay for college and a down payment for rent. Wasn’t easy…but life isn’t anyway.

    Many commenters have put forth the idea that I am only gender dysphoric as an attempt to protect myself. This is untrue. The sexual abuse didn’t start till age 10, and I was already “different” before then. While some kids may seek to sexually identify with their abusers out of a mistaken idea that all abusers are fully heterosexual in their picking of targets, I was not.

    Having my developing female body not only “betray” me personally, but having it used against me was very painful and I still have mental wounds that bleed into panic attacks and flashbacks now and then…but they are getting less, and I can control them easier now, especially if people don’t try to touch me without permission. I used to be a very cuddly and loving child, and I mourn the loss of him, but he’s never coming back and that’s just the way reality is. Sometimes pieces of us die, and can be resurrected. Sometimes it’s best to let them lie.

  37. You indicate the justification:

    “It’s time to compile all the information I know about Tarnished and issue a
    “mini report.”
    I don’t expect Tarnished to appreciate the things I say here, or even respond to
    them. I hope she realizes that the last thing I want to do is to alienate her, but my
    love of “personality detective work” is too great to resist the effort. And I concede
    that this apprasil could be wrong.”

    So this is all about your professed love of personality work? I don’t buy it.

    I try very hard to not be judgmental, I try to be positive to others when I perceive they are in need; especially emotional need. I’m not one to turn to righteous indignation, which is the main reason I stopped attending institutional churches. But I very much feel the need to tell you that your behavior is malicious and unacceptable.

    I’m not Tarn. I don’t really know Tarn other than my reading of her stuff. I have no right to take it upon myself to defend her. But I am defending her nonetheless. If Tarn wants to delete this post, I fully understand. I have no permission to defend her.

    Miss attempts, you need to self-reflect on your behavior.

  38. Thank you, Poseidon.
    The only thing I’m truly confused about is why Missattempts feels the need to give such a report. Perhaps he’ll tell us tomorrow.

  39. Dear Tarnished,
    I think that over the brief time you have known about me, and read all my postings,
    you know that I have strong feelings of AFFECTION for you.
    Your story resinated with me because I come from a dysfunctional family myself
    and was compelled to seek out help. As I said, I’ve only been on the computer
    since Feb. 2013.
    I am, by no means “normal” and at this late age (57) have no expectations of being
    normal. If you should read the book “Please Understand Me,” by David Kerisey, he
    describes my personality type, INFJ as making up 2% of the population.
    I have generally been isolated for 44 years and STARVED of the social graces, so it
    would NOT be unusual for me to offend people. If you look up my name on Google,
    you will find many postings on a wide variety of subjects, but the bulk of my
    autobiological information is on the site “My Christian Psychic.”
    Because I am a rather asocial person (Never been kissed) who relates to others
    “long distance” I try to make assesments of people who interest me on whatever
    avaible information I can cobble together. I always want to find viable personality
    systems. It’s a hobby of mine, like video games are a hobby of many INTJs.
    Tarnished did give out her birth information on her blog, and you can tell plenty
    from that alone. I also tabulated the numerological value of “The Tarnished Sophia.”
    It comes to 15. If you look up the number 15 in “The Secret Language Of Birthdays,”
    you will see that it shows the Tarot card of “The Devil.” It shows a man and woman
    being held in chains with the Devil in the backround. It’s not an “evil” card, it just
    means that “the devil” torments us by the natural differences between male and
    female. That’s what the topic of your blog is about, so your blog is aptly named.
    That’s proof that Chaldean Numerology is a vaild system.
    I DID admit that I could be wrong. I attribute that to the paltry amount of information
    I had to work with and basic psychological flaws that I posess.
    In any case, no offense was intended, and what little information I uncovered only
    strengthed my feelings of affection towards you.

  40. A little premature I realize, but you don’t check your blog everyday.
    Happy birthday Tarnished! The world is a richer place with you in it!
    I will be forever greatful that I made (You’re partial) accquaintance. Love You.
    Please Google the song, “The Rain, The Park, And Everything,” by the Cowsills.
    (The Flowergirl.)

  41. Hey, Tarnished, this is Sue. I’m checking in on your blog, like you encouraged me to do.

    I think I’m going to enjoy reading through this blog. A lot of the rants posted here resonated with me! LOL! 😉

    I thank you so much again for offering to have discussions with me on this blog. I may avail myself of that shortly.

    You mentioned something about “purple pill,” which sounds like that might be up my alley. Are there any purple pill sites or blogs that you could recommend? Thanks again.

  42. Hi Sue. Glad to see you.
    Unfortunately there aren’t any egalitarian sites that I really know of. Closest thing would be the subreddit called Purple Pill Debate. If you Google that phrase, it should come up immediately. Hope that helps! I’ve approved your first comment, so you should be good to go from now on. Let me know if you have any more questions, ok?

  43. Sue,
    I had written off commenting on the RPG’s site until you came along and shared your ideas. Because I share a similar background with you I thought my take could help you. I would be glad to give you my take on things if you like. I will not be searching through Tarnished site to look for comments, but if you post things here or post links to items, I will give you my feedback.

    Understand, that my perspective comes from the male side of things.

    My take on the purple pill: there is more to life than the gender war.

  44. Just to catch people up on definitions, in case we use them:

    Blue Pill: The majority point of view, where women are still severely oppressed in 1st world countries, men of all types are the oppressors, there is no such thing as misandry, sexism against men is not real, Men’s Rights is not only foolish but completely unnecessary. Will sometimes have followers that make concessions about the unfairness of family courts or double standards that hurt men, but are always quick to remind listeners that “all we need is more feminism” to fix this.

    Red Pill: The exact opposite of Blue. Tends to stress evo-psyche and related theories to explain why men and women work/think as they do, and commonly states that women need only exist to have value, whereas men must work for it. Has a significant following of men who use Game in their personal relationships to combat the supposed inherent “hypergamy” and “solipistic tendencies” that all women have.

    Purple Pill: The halfway point, and largely egalitarian. Purple Pillers look at the system and see what a mess it is for both sexes, but do not believe that either RP or BP ideologies are the correct methods for changing it. We often stress personal accountability, responsibility for one’s words/actions, promotions/praised based on merit instead of sex, and truly equal treatment of men and women. This goes for not only the legal system, but also in schools, financial institutions, and relationships. Typically against affirmative action, for obvious reasons and tend to believe that no one sex is “blessed” above the other…rather, each has its own positives and negatives in society. Do *not* believe AWALT or AMALT, and respect individuality of commenters while agreeing with the general truth of statistics.

  45. Sue, you said this over at RPG’s site:
    What I’m still going to have to get used to is … forgive me for saying it, but the rules of debate here are unfamiliar. I would like to give my opinion, and I guess what I need to do is just say, “This is my opinion.” And not actually respond to anyone else’s opinion? Because it seems like every time I do that, it just spirals down from there. That’s not the kind of online debate I’m used to doing.

    You seem to be able to tell me what you think, and we can go back and forth and it’s fine, but it doesn’t work that way with everyone here. Anyway, please tell me what else I need to know, and in the meantime I’ll try to just share my opinion (because as far as I know, I’m “allowed” that, right?), and try to leave it at that.

    It will help you communicate to the men if you understand them a little. Like:
    1. men are not allowed to act like men anywhere is society.
    2. there are not places for men to gather and converse as men. Except the manosphere.
    So you can see that the manosphere is going to be different from anywhere else. You are entering a whole new world………………….

    Where ever women go, they change the environment to be more feminine because if it is not feminine enough they feel out of place, threatened and insecure. Few women can enter a mans world without needing to change it. This is a talent you should work on developing. It will help you relate to all men in your life.

    Here is a little saying that illustrates the differences between men and women. (I really like this one, though I don’t remember where I got it from.)
    “Women complement each other and mean it as an insult.
    Men insult each other and mean it as a compliment.”

    Another pointer; in the manosphere the focus is on the faults of females. Most males share the same faults, but the manosphere is not the place to point that out. (This is basically why I have decided not to comment). Again, this is a place for men to point out the issues they have with women.

    Wow, talk about throwing some thoughts together. Sorry, there is no flow to them, but I really hope that they will help.

  46. Thank you so much go Figure and Tarnished! This helps a lot.

    Tarnished, purple pill sounds the most rational to me. What I’m seeing in the red pill is a lot of “Women are to blame for everything.” That seems to be the flip side of radical feminism, which is “Men are to blame for everything.” I can’t go along with either extreme.

    goFigure, thanks for your explanation.

    I get that there has to be a place for men to “vent” and that venting is cathartic. I also figured that a lot of what they said (being very over the top) was not meant to be taken literally. Though yeah, a lot of it was WOW, bizarre.

    What was confusing to me on RPG’s blog (and Dragonfly aptly pinpointed what my issue was) is that there’s a double standard in how we exchange ideas. Dragonfly says that the guy who would be the first to say, “F___ you feelings to me” would get all butthurt when he gets something back. She talks about the double standard (in how we’re allowed to express ourselves) and that is SO TRUE.

    I’m used to debate where if you dish it out, you need to anticipate that you will have to take it. I don’t use profanity (I don’t swoon if others do) but I figure if you start slinging around profanity, then you are no longer a delicate flower and since you’re dishing that to me, I can dish it back. And I don’t mean in some really mean-spirited way, but if you’re going to be blunt with me, then I can be blunt back. And what I was seeing was that I couldn’t do that, that wasn’t “allowed,” and that was hard to grasp.

    But hey, if guys are distraught (and clearly they are), then there’s no way I want to make things worse for them or get into the middle of that. I just think that it would help if the “rules” were defined very explicitly up front, meaning, you can’t debate back. LOL. I also think that if a guy is that distraught (I truly do sympathize with that) then maybe they don’t need to be exposed to “mixed” conversations where newbies might pop in at any minute and say something that could upset them.

    And that’s another thing! Why even have a conversation with women at all? One of the first things that I was told was that I needed to shut up. It’s like, am I supposed to just say, “Yes sir” in response to being told “You suck”? LOL. Why even allow women to enter in the discussion, is my question, if the minute there is any contradiction or “Wait a minute there,” it goes down the toilet.

    I just needed to get that out. LOL.

    Go Figure, I see what you mean about women compliment each other and mean it as an insult, men insult each other and mean it as a compliment. I have been told that before and have seen it. I can understand the need for a “male friendly place” where they can say all whatever they want as a way of venting. But they can’t seriously expect that the world at large (who can read some of their venting) is going to instantly “get” that. But, I can see the need for them to be able to let off steam.

    Thanks so much, tarnished and go Figure, it helped for me to get THAT out of my system! 🙂

  47. Sue,
    I have to ask; what are you trying to gain from this?

    It sounds like you want a place where you can have a ‘conversation’, share your ideas, get other peoples input etc. If that is they case; to what point? Are you trying to better understand men? Are you looking for a place that points out the contradictions in society? What exactly do you hope to gain?

    I only ask because different web sites are good for different reasons. RPG’s page is really good at pointing out how women can act/be to improve their chances at successful relationships. From your comments; I have not gotten the impression that you are interested in that topic.

  48. Back again: I was re-reading Dragonfly’s comment on RPG’s blog, and she said something about how some participants gloss on by the venting and complaining and just merrily converse with the other people about lighter topics. I guess I can do that. Just skim on by the stuff about how women have ruined the world and not pay attention to it? (LOL, some of those comments were so over the top.)

  49. What was confusing to me on RPG’s blog (and Dragonfly aptly pinpointed what my issue was) is that there’s a double standard in how we exchange ideas. Dragonfly says that the guy who would be the first to say, “F___ you feelings to me” would get all butthurt when he gets something back. She talks about the double standard (in how we’re allowed to express ourselves) and that is SO TRUE.

    Double standards come naturally to humans. They are everywhere in parenting circles it is often called “do as I say, not as I do” parenting method. Years ago, I pointed out to my wife that she needed to spend more time focused on the kids. Thankfully, she was wise enough not to tell me the same thing (Yes, I created a double standard. Yes, I needed to spend more time with my kids). Just like that I created a double standard. It only took me about 3 minutes of talking to my wife to do it.

    There are double standard in education, politics, relationships, society, you name it. I probably have double standard with in myself. I don’t like that thought!

    You (Sue) are doing well to recognize the double standard, now you just learn to adapt.

  50. And that’s another thing! Why even have a conversation with women at all? One of the first things that I was told was that I needed to shut up. It’s like, am I supposed to just say, “Yes sir” in response to being told “You suck”? LOL. Why even allow women to enter in the discussion, is my question, if the minute there is any contradiction or “Wait a minute there,” it goes down the toilet.

    They are not really trying to have a conversation with women. They are just trying to be understood. So if a women wants to go in there she should do what women always want men to do. ‘Listen. Do not try to fix things for me’.

  51. GoFigure, I was trying to figure out the puzzle of the manosphere. I found RPG’s blog to be the first which was making sense and wasn’t a constant diatribe about how awful women are. I do like to have conversations, and I think where I truly “belong” is a purple pill place. Too bad that there don’t seem to be many purple pill communities out there.

    Much of what RPG talks about (in regard to advising women on ways to improve their relationships) are ideas that I already knew about (don’t ride the cock carousel, don’t be a shrew, don’t have a wandering eye). I’m certainly open to reading new ideas, but so far a lot of the things she’s discussed were already taught to me. I will say, “That makes sense” and “I can agree with this wholeheartedly” or “Of course you are absolutely right!” to many of her initial posts. (This is not to diminish the contribution she’s making. I realize what she’s trying to do and it’s very worthwhile.)

    To be honest, a lot of the answers I seek are being given by you, Tarnished, Dragonfly, and RPG. I was trying to figure out, what the heck is going on! What is with all the contradictions! What’s with the us vs them. I have always assumed that most men are basically decent human beings. Most of the men I know are. Why am I now the “enemy”? It is confusing to me.

    I see now that there is no point in trying to point out the contradictions to the manopshere itself. It is not their function to accept that. What confuses me now is that they get “bad press” (many articles online and even in mainstream media have lambasted them) and this is due to the press finding so much ammunition to work with. So many over the top posts, blogs, anger, venting. It seems that some of the manosphere are upset by the bad press, but I don’t know what else they expect. If they write what they write, people can quote that and then there is the fallout. If the purple pill philosophy were more vocal, they might get more traction, and address many important issues (the unfairness in the courts against men is a prime example), because presumably the purple pill is absent a lot of the venting.

    That is just me thinking. I hope I have answered your question, and I thank you again!

  52. They are not really trying to have a conversation with women. They are just trying to be understood. So if a women wants to go in there she should do what women always want men to do. ‘Listen. Do not try to fix things for me’.

    Ahhhh, I see.

    I have to be honest with you. When I read about how much women suck, and when none of the things they are ranting about are recognizable qualities in any women I know, then I want to throw up my hands and say, “Whatever, then.” What am I supposed to understand? I can understand and sympathize with the pain. When men vent about the court system, that I can understand and I feel a lot of sympathy about that. It is so obviously unfair and the injustices are well-documented. But some of the more generalized “women are all worthless, women don’t do anything, yadda yadda,” there’s nothing there for me to understand. I guess all I can do is skim on by that post?

  53. How did you find the manosphere in the first place, Sue? I found it because a guy I know through another customer mentioned in a Facebook post that he was tired of the “misandry” evident in most of the women he dated…I’d never heard of that term before, so I Googled it. That was, geez, in 2010 or 2011. I took a closer look, and was absolutely amazed that there were entire forums of people who’d also noticed the same double standards my (male) friends and I constantly discussed!

    What brought you here?

  54. Double standards come naturally to humans.

    I see. Thanks for explaining. I guess it just “is” in this case. I can’t blame myself for not knowing beforehand that they were working with a double standard, though. In other places where there are online debates, this kind of double standard does not exist.

  55. Tarnished, I went to a large forum which had subforums on every imaginable topic. In the midst of happily discussing politics, world events and what have you, I kept on seeing these people talk about the manosphere. Sometimes they’d link to a website. It was quite an eye-opener!

  56. Yes, that’s probably best, Sue. There are commenters like TSK that I will just skip over their words entirely 99% of the time. Others, like Ton, BV, and thedeti, I’ll skim because they aren’t so bad and we even agree sometimes. Then there’s men like Spawny, Cill, Fuzzie, Poseidon, David Foster, Toysoldier, and obviously our friend GoFigure who are usually on the same page as Purple Pillers, “light” Red Pillers, or MGTOW.

    I like MGTOW blogs and posts the best (as I’m sure you can tell if you’ve poked this blog around at all) because they are very similar to myself, in that they only want to live in peace and not kowtow to the gender roles society forces on us. Of course, there are some angry men, but I find it very easy to sympathize with them, and as a whole MGTOW typically “like” or tolerate women who are not at all interested in roping a man into marriage, having children, or just using him as a walking ATM.

  57. There are commenters like TSK that I will just skip over their words entirely 99% of the time. Others, like Ton, BV, and thedeti, I’ll skim because they aren’t so bad and we even agree sometimes. Then there’s men like Spawny, Cill, Fuzzie, Poseidon, David Foster, Toysoldier, and obviously our friend GoFigure who are usually on the same page as Purple Pillers, “light” Red Pillers, or MGTOW.

    That really helps. Thanks, you really nailed it down. The names you list as being “light” (etc) are the ones I enjoy conversing with. The others…skimming on by now! La la la I can’t hear you! That helps A LOT. Thanks.

  58. GoFigure, I was trying to figure out the puzzle of the manosphere. I found RPG’s blog to be the first which was making sense and wasn’t a constant diatribe about how awful women are.
    There is no puzzle to the manosphere. Men just want to be understood. Guess what other gender wants that.

    I was trying to figure out, what the heck is going on! What is with all the contradictions! Human nature.

    What’s with the us vs them. I have always assumed that most men are basically decent human beings. Most of the men I know are. Why am I now the “enemy”? It is confusing to me.
    Welcome to 3rd wave feminism and how it has shaped our society/family structure. Most men are decent human beings (even the ones in the manosphere), but they can only be abused by women and the family courts for so long.

    What confuses me now is that they get “bad press” (many articles online and even in mainstream media have lambasted them) and this is due to the press finding so much ammunition to work with. So many over the top posts, blogs, anger, venting.
    Bad press does not concern most of them. When society destroys hope in young men they will respond as you described it. If you want to see how that is going to turn out, study middle eastern countries and how their young men behave (ever heard of suicide bombings to get to heaven).

    It seems that some of the manosphere are upset by the bad press, but I don’t know what else they expect. If they write what they write, people can quote that and then there is the fallout.
    The manosphere is actually made up of a large and varied set of people. The ones concerned with press releases typically fall within the men’s right movement. Within the manosphere they are usually considered the weakest/ most pathetic.

    If the purple pill philosophy were more vocal, they might get more traction, and address many important issues (the unfairness in the courts against men is a prime example), because presumably the purple pill is absent a lot of the venting.
    As of right now the purple pill does not exist. It is simply a concept some people use to distinguish between the two extremes of feminist society and red-pill.

  59. Welcome to 3rd wave feminism and how it has shaped our society/family structure. Most men are decent human beings (even the ones in the manosphere), but they can only be abused by women and the family courts for so long.

    I see. I guess I am fortunate that in my circle of friends, family, church, 3rd wave feminism (at least what I assume 3rd wave feminism to be?) has not taken much hold. Microaggressions, patriarchy, all of that, are not words that we use, are not concepts we understand.

    A lot of this, as I mentioned on RPG’s blog, are what I consider left-wing politics vs. right-wing politics. A lot of this social justice warrior, politically incorrect stuff is mocked by most of the people I know.

    When society destroys hope in young men they will respond as you described it. If you want to see how that is going to turn out, study middle eastern countries and how their young men behave (ever heard of suicide bombings to get to heaven).

    That sends chills down my spine!

    The manosphere is actually made up of a large and varied set of people. The ones concerned with press releases typically fall within the men’s right movement. Within the manosphere they are usually considered the weakest/ most pathetic.

    I see! I didn’t know about that.

    As of right now the purple pill does not exist. It is simply a concept some people use to distinguish between the two extremes of feminist society and red-pill.

    That’s a pity.

    Thanks for all the answers! 🙂

  60. I have to be honest with you. When I read about how much women suck, and when none of the things they are ranting about are recognizable qualities in any women I know, then I want to throw up my hands and say, “Whatever, then.” What am I supposed to understand?
    These are the comments that will get you in trouble.

    If you can not recognize that the people around you have selfish tendencies then that is your challenge. (If you are like me the people you know work very hard to not be selfish). The manosphere uses a lot of term solipsism, hypergamy etc. It can all be boiled down to being selfish.

    When you make a comment that nobody you know is selfish. This really get under the skin of the men and they will soon call you a troll.

  61. goFigure, if it was explained the way that you explained it, I understand. But when the comments are more extreme, like, “Women ruin everything,” and “Women are all worthless” then no, that doesn’t give me anything to hang onto and attempt to understand.

    I will readily acknowledge that some women can be trampy, some women are selfish, some women are lazy. I can believe that their wife was that bad, but all women as a gender? I can’t connect with that. But … I can just skim on by such comments and figure that they needed to rant, can’t I?

  62. Tarn,
    There are commenters like TSK that I will just skip over their words entirely 99% of the time. Others, like Ton, BV, and thedeti, I’ll skim because they aren’t so bad and we even agree sometimes.
    I’m a little surprised.
    I thing Ton and BV are on the top of my list of over the top crap. I will actually listen to TSK even Toad. Of course, Yoda and Fuzzie are probably two of my favorites.

  63. I think another thing to remember, in case you try to be more openly empathetic like I was upon entering the ‘sphere, is that many of the men really *don’t* have any truly nice/caring women in their lives…Not their mothers, not their sisters, nor spouses or coworkers. A lot of them come from homes and circles where, like GoFigure just said, the majority of women they have close contact with are of a similar selfish mindset.

    I initially approached the ‘sphere with open arms, and more often than not got my kind words twisted and thrown back at me. A lot of men are suspicious of female commenters who display empathy, and with good reason. It’s very difficult to accept what you’ve never seen before. It is slightly more difficult for someone like me, as I am female but do not consider myself as such…trans or dysphoric folk like myself are almost nonexistent in the manosphere, and it really shows at times.

    But, you carry on providing a shoulder and ear, which is why I’m still here. I try to relieve pain whenever possible, just like I do in real life. 🙂

  64. Sue,
    Have you ever looked at Dalrock’s place? It might be informative to you. It is the only other red-pill site that I follow. If you go, make sure you understand that he has asked women not to comment.

  65. GoFigure,
    My “preferences” are probably due to knowing and interacting with Ton, BV, and thedeti *much* more than Toad or TSK, as they also comment quite frequently on Spawny’s blog but I’ve never seen the other two there. TSK is just, in my opinion, incredibly arrogant and he wears on my nerves a great deal because of it. Toad is very, *very* biblical Christian and while he has some good info in his comments it makes me think of being stuck in church as a teen again, lol. (I don’t have anything against Christians, my lover is one, as is most of my family and social circle…but it doesn’t interest me as a reason behind social arguments. Your experience probably is different.)

    Yoda, Farm Boy, Sumo, Liz, and Fuzzie (who I get to meet irl soon, yay!) are awesome, as is Poseidon, who you’ve also met. Over at Spawny’s blog there’s Spawny (duh), Cill, and Blurkel, who are all various levels of MGTOW. Then there is Cill’s crew of friends/relatives that comment frequently: Molly, Choicy, M, and Cillhouette. It’s quite the party! 😉

  66. Tarnished: I initially approached the ‘sphere with open arms, and more often than not got my kind words twisted and thrown back at me. A lot of men are suspicious of female commenters who display empathy, and with good reason. It’s very difficult to accept what you’ve never seen before. It is slightly more difficult for someone like me, as I am female but do not consider myself as such…trans or dysphoric folk like myself are almost nonexistent in the manosphere, and it really shows at times.

    Thank you, this warning will not fall on deaf ears. Yes, getting my words twisted would not be pleasant for me! Yes, I imagine that trans folk are not commonplace on the manosphere, and … yeah. I understand what you’re saying! Thanks! I will probably have a question or two to ask in the future!

    goFigure, I haven’t heard of Dalrock’s place. Thanks for the warning, I will definitely NOT want to comment if that’s against the rules. (I just want to know the rules beforehand! 🙂 )

    I appreciate all the advice and help that you’ve given me.

  67. Tarn,
    Dalrock asked this of his commentators about 3-5 months ago. He worded it something like this: I want this to be a mans place were they are free to say whatever they want. So, if you are a women please respect that.

    If you are one of the rare women that can actually communicate like a man then you are still welcome. Basically, if they cant tell your a women from your comments, you are OK. Most women can’t pull that off.

  68. Ok Tarn, I’m game for a discussion if you are.
    This is why I wanted to be a college professor, I get to do my work when I want and how I want.

    christian…………but it doesn’t interest me as a reason behind social arguments. Your experience probably is different.) How is my experience different?

    It is slightly more difficult for someone like me, as I am female but do not consider myself as such… I think I get the jist of what you are saying, but you have a male lover. Do you consider yourself gay? So many questions, lets just start there.

  69. How is my experience different?
    That may have been presumptuous of me. I thought I recalled from other comments of yours that you were a more traditional form of Christian like Sue and Toad. Another interesting aspect of the manosphere is just how many literal biblical Christians there are who use their holy book as the basis for their arguments. The majority of Christians I interact with on a daily basis tend to be more of the open-interpretation type. I had, perhaps wrongly, assumed that was part of the reason you enjoyed Toad’s comments. I apologize if this was incorrect.

    I think I get the jist of what you are saying, but you have a male lover.

    This is true.

    Do you consider yourself gay?
    No. I’m bisexual. I am attracted to both men and women alike. My first kiss and rather clumsy makeout session was with a girl my age in 10th grade. Other than that, the only real experience I have is with my male FwB, who you already know about.

  70. Another interesting aspect of the manosphere is just how many literal biblical Christians there are who use their holy book as the basis for their arguments.
    You are correct, I am a literal bible interpreter. Toad is interesting, but I think he cherry picks and does not have proper context many times.
    My question was more about your statement of not using christian social arguments and what did you mean how my experience would be different.

    No. I’m bisexual. I am attracted to both men and women alike.
    Gotcha. If you feel male, would you want to be the one penetrating, does receiving that seem odd/wrong to you. I guess I can’t understand how you feel male when you are physically a female.

  71. I’ll try to explain why I question you and I having different experiences. You love to help people. You have mentioned it many times. If you are familiar with the parable of the good Samaritan. Then I would ask you; who is the christian the person who claims it or the person who acts it?

  72. I meant more along the lines of using biblical concepts to explain social behaviors/lack thereof. I used to be Christian, and remember this happening a lot. For example, how some preachers say that women only disagree with their husbands (like what restaurant to eat at or what car to buy) because God said to Eve “your desire will be for your husband/to control your husband, yet he shall rule over you” and this is them living out the curse. Whereas I look at a couple that disagrees and simply see two people with different opinions, not a woman fighting for control. I didn’t know how much of this type of thinking was shared by the sect of Christianity you’re in…

    If you feel male, would you want to be the one penetrating

    Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
    My lover and I are both pretty…open minded…when it comes to nontraditional positions in bed and our use of “toys”. We both have a Try Anything Once mentality, lol.

    does receiving seem odd/wrong to you.

    No moreso than I imagine it does to a gay male. So, not at all? It probably helps that neither my partner or I think of specific positions as being “submissive” or “dominant”. They certainly *can* be if that’s how we’re playing around with roles at that time, but it’s definitely not inherent.

    This post in particular might help clear some of the confusion up, along with the recommended posts after it. https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/gender-dysphoria-and-sex/

  73. Who is the Christian, the person who claims it or the person who acts it?

    In this instance, I’d say the one who acts it is the Christian following the tenants of their faith more closely than the one who only gives lip service.

  74. I meant more along the lines of using biblical concepts to explain social behaviors/lack thereof. I used to be Christian, and remember this happening a lot.

    Well I guess I am guilty of using biblical concepts to explain social behaviors. Specifically the concepts of selfishness and selflessness. I think that is basically the heart and soul of Christendom. The two great commandments back this up pretty well.

    For example, how some preachers say that women only disagree with their husbands (like what restaurant to eat at or what car to buy) because God said to Eve “your desire will be for your husband/to control your husband, yet he shall rule over you” and this is them living out the curse. Whereas I look at a couple that disagrees and simply see two people with different opinions, not a woman fighting for control. I didn’t know how much of this type of thinking was shared by the sect of Christianity you’re in…

    I see this example as a difference of opinion. I have no idea how I would react if a religious leader tried to teach this as doctrine. It would probably depend on the point he/she was making. If the point is that women disagree with their husband because god said so. My response would be: well duh, humans will disagree.

  75. I think I got the basics of bold, italics etc. I can’t do fancy emoji’s. Is their other things I should know?

  76. Probably not too much more. I don’t own a computer, so everything I write…including the emojis I use…are just what’s available on my cell.

  77. Tarn,
    I would like to say thank you!

    After talking to you yesterday about IQ, I got looking into it. Anyways I stumbled onto Mensa’s web site and was looking it over. I discovered that I might be able to qualify. I talked it over with my wife last night and she said go for it. I don’t know if I will try or not, but It is another chance for growth. So, thanks.

    I know you like to help people, and you helped me here.

    Talk to you later.

  78. No problem, GoFigure!
    Just be aware that they do charge an annual fee to be kept on their membership list. But if you enjoy the tests they have and want to be a part of it, I say try it. 😀

  79. Yeah. Some of my customers are Mensa members, and they convinced me to take a test for it about 3 years ago. I qualified, but would rather spend my extra cash on the charities I support. I’m not destitute by any means…but I also don’t sleep on a pile of money, lol. I know it’s only $70 per year, but that can buy a *lot* of blankets for shelter dogs or go towards the Wounded Warrior Project to help veterans. Or to the Parsemus Foundation to get more male birth control options out there…eventually. 😛

  80. Sue,
    I have no idea if you will ever read this, but I’ll put it here anyways.

    You posted this over on RPG site and because I can build a bridge with you easier then I can the group over there; I’ll respond here. This is so full of contradictions. Women shouldn’t read this. Don’t read it. Oh wait a minute, maybe it’s good for women to read it.

    Maybe there’s a way to keep people from seeing what’s not intended for them to see. No, wait, it’s not a good thing.

    This goes straight into my “Contradictions” column, and it’s gonna stay there! 🙂 I am no longer curious to find out about the nuances! Yoda said we shouldn’t expect everyone to agree with everything, and I’ve been counseled on that before and now I see, first hand, the wisdom in that. I just want what will work the best, whatever that may be.

    Your background gives you the knowledge and abilities to overcome many of the challenges that other people face (but it brings its own challenges). I will just say that their really is not as many ‘contradictions’ as you think there is. There are mostly just different perspectives.

  81. Hi Tarnished, your post popped up on my email notifications!

    I get that part of this are different opinions. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

    It just got really frustrating. IN MY HEAD I was thinking about logistics. If these guys don’t want women to read some of the manosphere stuff meant only for men, make it a little less easy to find. (In retrospect, I’m sure they know how to do exactly what they want to do, and have already done it.) I was trying to solve the “problem” of women seeing and then commenting on what was never meant for them to see in the first place. (And by commenting, they’d be disrupting and disturbing.)

    But what I got was a bunch of, “She’s trying to tell us what to do!” “She wants us to self-censor!” “She can’t deal with us expressing our feelings!” “Women can’t deal with what we have to say!” (stuff like that)

    And NO, no that was NOT what I was trying to say. I thought we were supposed to stay away. Now it looks like they want us to read it all? Which is it? And what does any of that have to do with using some Internet technical mechanism to help filter out (just a little bit) people who might stumble by and then cause trouble because they don’t get it?

    It seemed like all of that was lost, and maybe I suck at communicating (I know I sometimes do) but this all seemed to be SUPER hard to communicate, and usually I don’t have that much trouble. So, I don’t think it’s ALL me. But if it is me, then forget it! I don’t have problems in other places. I enjoy posting in places where I’m able to be understood, and this is not it. LOL!

    It felt like I was in a world where someone would say, “Blue is good” and someone else would say, “I like red” and then another person would jump in and say, “So you mean you hate blue?”

    That’s just too much to deal with! LOL! I know you warned me that women coming in are all assumed to be trolls, and I see that happening, and of course that probably accounts for some of the failure to communicate as well.

    I can also tell that just because one person has an opinion, it doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t going to jump in and disagree with it. Like you say, people have different perspectives.

    Thanks for posting this and thank you for letting me vent here! The only reason I posted on RPG’s blog in the first place was because it’s supposed to be a place where women can post. I don’t post on the men’s blogs at all, because I know that would be unwelcome and fruitless.

    I like RPG’s blog and I’ve subscribed to her, so I’ll probably pop in and comment on her subsequent posts. There are a lot of nice people there.

    Thanks again! Cheers! 🙂

  82. It seemed like all of that was lost, and maybe I suck at communicating (I know I sometimes do) but this all seemed to be SUPER hard to communicate, and usually I don’t have that much trouble. So, I don’t think it’s ALL me. But if it is me, then forget it! I don’t have problems in other places. I enjoy posting in places where I’m able to be understood, and this is not it. LOL!

    It was not you, you communicate your ideas fine.

    I thought we were supposed to stay away. Now it looks like they want us to read it all? Which is it? And what does any of that have to do with using some Internet technical mechanism to help filter out (just a little bit) people who might stumble by and then cause trouble because they don’t get it?

    It is which ever way you want it to be. You can consume as much or as little as you want. I would suggest not trying to change it. You already answered the last question yourself In retrospect, I’m sure they know how to do exactly what they want to do, and have already done it. I am beginning to think that many men in the sphere think of women as little more then full grown children (some with good cause) and that men should treat women as such. It is not a friendly place for women, but I do agree with them that gender relations are in deep trouble.

    The men in the sphere like to paint with broad strokes. There is little room for other point of views.

  83. Oops, I now see that you are goFigure, not Tarnished! Sorry about that!

    I’m glad I was able to communicate okay. That’s a relief. So it’s not all on me! LOL!

    Yes, of course now I realize that they can do whatever (technical) things that they want to do. I was pondering on the RPG blog about WHY they leave some things open, but then they’re easy to see, which means people will stumble on by, get all upset, make trouble… I guess there is no easy answer to that one. I wonder about it, though. (I’m not trying to change it, just puzzling over it.)

    All I know is that I do not want to consume hardly any of what is out there. It seems like every “big” manosphere site (that I know of) has some not-insignificant portion of content that is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY out there. If not WAAAAAAAAAAAY out there, at least WAAY out there. Some of it seems indistinguishable from trolling (I won’t say which is and which isn’t, because I don’t know), but either way, there’s no need for me to read it. And I definitely don’t intend to change it; there is no way I could do that anyway.

    And if “they” want me to read their WAAAAAAAAAAY out there stuff (I have no idea if they do or not) then forget that too! You’re right, it is not a friendly place for women.

    Thanks again for listening and explaining! 🙂 I really appreciate it.

  84. As Truth, Rationality & Moderation are the first casualties of War, your noble attempt at blogged gender moderation faced insurmountable odds, the sad truth being that there can be no gender truce until factions blue & pink face catastrophic consequence, sicken of gender conflict, lay down their arms in simultaneous fashion & agree to abide by same mutually beneficial social contract (which cannot & will not happen until both sides accept utter defeat) as in the old Twilight Zone episode “Two” starring Charles Bronson & Elizabeth Montgomery.

    If he or she is to survive, then the Moderate has only limited choice: Remain in the middle as a sitting-duck noncombatant, snipped at from both sides; swear allegiance to one side or another as victor or loser; or, withdraw to a safe vantage, going Galt, Ghost or Your Own Way. You self-identify as a combatant when you prefer gynocentricity to manosphere, whereas those who wish to avoid combat choose MGTOW.

    Good Luck.

  85. My email alerted me that another post has been made, so, back I am. 🙂

    After further reflection, I feel more and more like I just want to wait it out, more in the distance. I don’t feel I am part of the “problem,” at least not the most grievous ones that are often outlined in red pill sites and blogs. Though, I suppose me wanting to pursue a career could be a problem for some. If so, I can’t help that. I answer to God first, and I believe He gave me aptitudes and talents with the intent that I use them.

    I don’t want to cause anyone further pain, and I do believe that there are guys suffering and this has gone unacknowledged. But at the same time, I don’t feel I can really contribute much to alleviating that suffering, other than to get out of the way and not be a direct cause of it.

  86. I forgot to add to the above:

    I do feel I have been educated a bit more on how much some guys have been suffering; that video documentary I saw a while ago (which talked about guys going to the backwoods for support and therapy) was very educational. I wouldn’t have learned about any of that if it were not for this blog by Tarnished, as well as the red pill girl blog. I am grateful for that.

  87. Sometimes the only action one can take is indeed just not contributing *more* to the problem. This is a valid route to take.

    However, one can always find ways to speak up against misandry or simply be more supportive of the men in their lives.

  88. Tarn,
    I wanted to ask you a few things because I find your responses reasonable and because you will not be as flabbergasted by me as others will.

    First question/situation:
    If we have a social setting with lots of men and women ~ 10% of those men will be alpha and another ~10% greater beta. These 20% of men will dominate socially and draw most female attention. Then we will have ~30% of the men that are wall flowers/socially awkward and are mostly hopeless with women. The last ~50 percent of men (typically called beta) will move between the social circle and the wall flowers. Many of them will likely leave early or start their own thing at the event. Many of these beta’s have plenty of alpha characteristics but women fail to see it, because they are completely focused on the top 20%. I would suggest to women that they need to look at this mostly invisible 50% to find the kind of men they claim to want. These are the men that will not be chasing and trying to impress the girls.They can see the game is fixed, and move on to other things. Women should catch them before they go.

    OK, tell me where I am wrong so I can fix my thinking. I know you have plenty of interaction with this missing 50%. I am sure that you even get plenty of interaction from the lowest 30%. If anyone gets my take it will most likely be you.

    Second question:
    Is it just me or do others see that white knights and PUA/alphas are the same in regards to chasing the almighty vagina?
    White knight= deeds and chivalry will get me with a woman.
    PUA/alpha= manipulation, coercion and outright abuse will get me women.
    The difference I see is that one believes in love the other believes in lust.

    OK, feel free to correct me.

  89. I said this over at RPG place:
    ‘The crap coming out of an alpha’s butt hole is more valuable then the crap coming out of their brain through their mouth’.

    Thoughts? Do the men you hang out with agree with this or have a different take?

    I find is hilarious that an alpha male is determined by female attention.

    Can you see how ridiculous this is? Em I missing something?

  90. Tarn,
    I wanted to ask you a few things because I find your responses reasonable and because you will not be as flabbergasted by me as others will.

    Hi GoFigure. Thank you for stopping by again.

    First question/situation:
    If we have a social setting with lots of men and women ~ 10% of those men will be alpha and another ~10% greater beta. These 20% of men will dominate socially and draw most female attention. Then we will have ~30% of the men that are wall flowers/socially awkward and are mostly hopeless with women. The last ~50 percent of men (typically called beta) will move between the social circle and the wall flowers. Many of them will likely leave early or start their own thing at the event. Many of these beta’s have plenty of alpha characteristics but women fail to see it, because they are completely focused on the top 20%.

    I think this is pretty true of most large social gatherings or environments. The breakdown you postulate seems to reflect what I’ve seen as well. However, I’d ask you to think about the female population in your above scenario as well. How many of them do you believe are alphas, greater betas, wallflowers, incredibly shy/awkward/anxious, etc? What would an interaction look like between an alpha woman + wallflower man VS a social awkward woman and greater beta man? Or a male + female who are both hopeless with the opposite sex?

    I would suggest to women that they need to look at this mostly invisible 50% to find the kind of men they claim to want. These are the men that will not be chasing and trying to impress the girls.They can see the game is fixed, and move on to other things. Women should catch them before they go.

    I see nothing wrong with this logic.
    It is very similar to what I think and advise.

    OK, tell me where I am wrong so I can fix my thinking. I know you have plenty of interaction with this missing 50%. I am sure that you even get plenty of interaction from the lowest 30%. If anyone gets my take it will most likely be you.

    What part do you think needs correction?

    Second question:
    Is it just me or do others see that white knights and PUA/alphas are the same in regards to chasing the almighty vagina?

    Pretty much.

    White knight= deeds and chivalry will get me with a woman.
    PUA/alpha= manipulation, coercion and outright abuse will get me women.

    Yes.

    The difference I see is that one believes in love the other believes in lust. OK, feel free to correct me.

    This is the only point I’d disagree with.
    I think white knights pedestalize women to the point of believing they are pristine angels of sunshine, whereas PUAs see women as naught but inherently hypergamous and purely instinctual/lacking in true intelligence.

    It’s the old Madonna-Whore complex, where white knights think the female of the species is sexually, emotionally, and mentally “pure” so they hide behind outdated concepts of chivalry and pre-Kinsey thoughts of sexuality where genital pleasure/satisfaction is never in the minds of the “fair maidens” they try to woo. PUAs, on the other hand, seem to think women do want sex and that it crosses their minds many times a day…but usually in regards to how it can be used against a male in a manipulative manner. Hence, why they look down on both “prudes” who refuse to sleep with them AND “sluts” who agree to. For the most part, they don’t believe a woman can be horny and just want to get her rocks off like him.

  91. I think this is pretty true of most large social gatherings or environments. The breakdown you postulate seems to reflect what I’ve seen as well. However, I’d ask you to think about the female population in your above scenario as well. How many of them do you believe are alphas, greater betas, wallflowers, incredibly shy/awkward/anxious, etc?
    For women I would think the break down looks more like ~5% alpha, ~25% greater beta, ~50% beta(in the middle) and ~20% in the wallflower group. I think most women are elastic within this break down. Meaning that present company can have a huge effect on were a women perceives herself. Therefor she can move easily from one to another with a little coaxing.

    What would an interaction look like between an alpha woman + wallflower man Awkward conversation, the women would have to carry the whole interaction.

    VS a social awkward woman and greater beta man? If she is pleasant things would probably go fine, because men are more interested in doing things then conversing. And because women are more socially elastic.

    Or a male + female who are both hopeless with the opposite sex? This interaction could be all over the board.

    I am not sure why you wanted me to look at this.

    What part do you think needs correction? Anywhere that I’m wrong.

    I will think over your interpretation of White knights and PUA.
    Do you distinguish between alpha and PUA?

  92. I said this over at RPG place:
    ‘The crap coming out of an alpha’s butt hole is more valuable then the crap coming out of their brain through their mouth’.
    Thoughts? Do the men you hang out with agree with this or have a different take?

    They know that Alphas and Betas exist, but don’t think such traits are set it stone. A man can be Beta in one situation and Alpha in another, and it is all okay. They also acknowledge that there are “pecking orders” amongst men, but only douchebags with something to prove would let said hierarchy dictate his behavior towards his friends like that.

    I find it hilarious that an alpha male is determined by female attention.
    Can you see how ridiculous this is? Am I missing something?

    I don’t think you are, but there are too many definitions of Alpha to have a decent conversation without more description being had first. For example, Ton would likely say a “true” Alpha is actually determined by a male who lives by the No Fucks Given philosophy. But TSK or Toad might say that Alphas are only those who have the respect of other men, regardless of the amount of female attention given. And yes, there are commenters who think that Alpha = Major Puller of Ass. I honestly don’t know. Many of the traits that the manosphere claims to be Alpha aren’t ones I’d look for in a mate, personally.

  93. They also acknowledge that there are “pecking orders” amongst men, but only douchebags with something to prove would let said hierarchy dictate his behavior towards his friends like that.

    Pecking orders in terms of women?

    But TSK or Toad might say that Alphas are only those who have the respect of other men, regardless of the amount of female attention given.

    Do they not realize that the typical man is just as pathetic as the typical women?

    Many of the traits that the manosphere claims to be Alpha aren’t ones I’d look for in a mate, personally.

    Such as:

    Ton would likely say a “true” Alpha is actually determined by a male who lives by the No Fucks Given philosophy.

    Sorry, I don’t think I understand this one.

  94. Tarn,
    Sorry to lean on you for this, but I went MGTOW when I was 13-16. I treat men and women similarly so when I went MGTOW, I didn’t just say “to heck with women”, I also said “to heck with men”. So I often miss some of the meaning even when men are saying it.

  95. Pecking orders in terms of women?

    No. Like the claims of automatic male hierarchies that TSK, Ton, and Toad were referring to last month on Bloom’s blog.

    I am not sure why you wanted me to look at this.

    Honestly? Because I was curious about your response. The majority of fellow commenters I speak with in the ‘sphere deny the existence of “lesser” (wallflower/awkward/socially inept) women. To many of them, 99% of females are incapable of being anything less than socially superior to men, and thus even the most seemingly nerdy, shy, geek of a woman can manipulate most men with ease. I was wondering what you thought regarding this topic, and you did not disappoint. I like your response. It’s one of the more realistic ones.

    Do they not realize that the typical man is just as pathetic as the typical women?

    Not sure. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t think of most people as being pathetic…Just lost and selfish. I want so badly to believe in the goodness of other men and women, but am constantly disappointed. Hence, I am kind and polite to all, but am also fairly misanthropic.

    Sorry, I don’t think I understand this one.
    Meaning that he doesn’t care if all women see him as Alpha. He believes it of himself, ergo it is true. What random women say has no bearing on the status he gives himself or receives via respect from other males.

    Sorry to lean on you for this, but I went MGTOW when I was 13-16. I treat men and women similarly so when I went MGTOW, I didn’t just say “to heck with women”, I also said “to heck with men”. So I often miss some of the meaning even when men are saying it.

    That’s ok. I don’t mind at all.
    Were you assuming I would?

    Tarn said…Many of the traits that the manosphere claims to be Alpha aren’t ones I’d look for in a mate, personally.
    Gofigure said…Such as:

    Some of the ones I’ve seen associated with Alpha behaviors, that I personally don’t like, are;

    -Dark Triad personality type
    -Uses love/affection/sex as a tool
    -Untrusting towards SO
    -Is arrogant
    -Demeaning towards SO in public
    -Treats SO like a child
    -Makes large decisions without consulting SO
    -Creates rules for SO, but does not follow them
    -Uses 3-1 rule on SO for calls, texts, etc
    -Makes SO think they are easily replaceable
    -Uses “dread game”
    -Is passive aggressive
    -Refuses to give credit to SO for their accomplishments

  96. Let me try to explain why I have such a hard time with the concept of alpha. In general, I agree with your friends/lover that most men are both alpha/beta and they will step up whenever necessary. The only time I consistently see men that are ‘alpha’ is in social situations. I do see men that are smooth with the women and get plenty of attention. So I tend to define alpha as men that are socially dominant/ attract women. In all other situation men are both alpha and beta.

    So let me tell you about the only two ‘alpha’ men I had dealings with. The first is a good friends of mine. He could go out with several different women in a single week and by the time one walked out the door another one was already at his side. One day he comes up and thanks me. He said that I was the rock in his life and he knew that I would not move. So he always came back to hanging with me to make sure he didn’t ever go to far over the edge. So an alpha said I’m the bastion that he uses to keep his life in order.

    The second was an acquaintance that ran around with a group of alpha guys. These are the alphas (maybe some greater betas) that have it all; money, girls, social dominance, you name it. One day I’m talking to him and just mention that I am surprised that none of them have ever approached me about joining in. His response was something like ‘Nobody asks because they already know your answer and the don’t want to be called on their stuff’. Seriously a whole group of alphas afraid of being turned down by a beta/gamma/omega guy and called out on their BS.

    Anyways, can you see why I struggle with the concept of alpha? The way I see it, I am either the greatest alpha and other alphas get their ques from me or the whole concept of alpha is bunk (except for females that fall for it). I think the latter one is the correct idea.

  97. No. Like the claims of automatic male hierarchies that TSK, Ton, and Toad were referring to last month on Bloom’s blog.

    Sorry, I missed that one. If there is an automatic male hierarchy it has a lot more to do with red(type A) personalities and blue/white(type B) personalities, then any mythical alpha or beta male.

    I was wondering what you thought regarding this topic, and you did not disappoint. I like your response. It’s one of the more realistic ones.

    Should I refine my idea? Do you agree that women are more socially elastic? I would say that there is only ~5% of women that are really inept, but there is ~15% of women that socially struggle/feel inadequacy.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t think of most people as being pathetic…Just lost and selfish.

    I can agree with lost and selfish. You want to know why I went MGTOW? Around the age of 13 I realized my peers were wasting their lives trying to impress each other. By about age 16 I realized that the parents and adults were doing the same thing and that most people never grow up. So I use the word pathetic- to describe people that never learn that trying to impress each other, with looks and stuff(houses/cars/toys), is pointless.

    Hence, I am kind and polite to all

    I do this simply because I think it makes me a better person if I live my convictions.

    Were you assuming I would?

    No. But I am an gamma/omega guy who also tries his best to emulate Christ (Sorry, I know you are not Christian), so politeness happens.

    Some of the ones I’ve seen associated with Alpha behaviors, that I personally don’t like, are;
    -Uses “dread game”

    I will agree you listed some really crappy behavior, except for possibly the one I copied. By my understanding this one is not so bad. For example: If my wife ever cheats on me, she knows exactly what will happen and how hard and fast it will happen. My wife uses it too. For example: I once asked her if I ever hit her would she even consider giving me another chance. Her response was its a good thing that will never happen.

  98. Meaning that he doesn’t care if all women see him as Alpha. He believes it of himself, ergo it is true. What random women say has no bearing on the status he gives himself or receives via respect from other males.
    Sound like MGTOW to me.

  99. Anyways, can you see why I struggle with the concept of alpha? The way I see it, I am either the greatest alpha and other alphas get their ques from me or the whole concept of alpha is bunk (except for females that fall for it). I think the latter one is the correct idea.

    Given those scenarios, I agree.

    Sound like MGTOW to me.

    In a way, yes, especially if one defines MGTOW literally…as in going one’s own way, regardless of what that path looks like. Most online MGTOW would not necessarily consider him as such, because he still lives with women and purposefully has children with them (he is in an out of wedlock, cohabitation poly relationship with 2 women, one of which has a son by him). But as that is his “way”, it could be a form of MGTOW.

    I can agree with lost and selfish. You want to know why I went MGTOW? Around the age of 13 I realized my peers were wasting their lives trying to impress each other. By about age 16 I realized that the parents and adults were doing the same thing and that most people never grow up.

    That is a very unique reason to go your own way. Normally it takes a much harsher catalyst.

    Sorry, I missed that one.

    It was a conversation being had right around when you stopped lurking. If you wish, I can attempt to find it?

    If there is an automatic male hierarchy it has a lot more to do with red(type A) personalities and blue/white(type B) personalities, then any mythical alpha or beta male.

    My thoughts exactly.

    Should I refine my idea? Do you agree that women are more socially elastic? I would say that there is only ~5% of women that are really inept, but there is ~15% of women that socially struggle/feel inadequacy.

    No, I don’t think any refining is necessary. The fact that you’re willing to say there’s 15-20% of women with some type of social awkwardness is much closer to the truth than those who say only 1%. I understand that it is easier for some to feel justified in avoiding women if 99% are capable of emotional manipulation and “superiority”, but it just isn’t statistically possible. Men should be free to GTOW given realistic ofds, not needing to fall back on improbable AWALT arguments.

    No. But I am an gamma/omega guy who also tries his best to emulate Christ (Sorry, I know you are not Christian), so politeness happens.

    No apologies for your faith, friend. It is not your type of Christian I take issue with. After all, my lover is an Episcopalian, and most of my close friends are some kind of Christian. My dislike is reserved for those who use their religion as a philosophical Get Out Of Jail Free card, and do absolutely nothing to carry their beliefs…except to rub them in non-Christian faces.

    I will agree you listed some really crappy behavior, except for possibly the one I copied. By my understanding this one is not so bad. For example: If my wife ever cheats on me, she knows exactly what will happen and how hard and fast it will happen. My wife uses it too. For example: I once asked her if I ever hit her would she even consider giving me another chance. Her response was its a good thing that will never happen.

    I would not consider that dread game. It is simply a statement of fact. Neither of you are holding a dire threat above the others head in order to manipulate them into doing something they wouldn’t otherwise. You’re just saying you won’t put up with disrespectful bullshit. I think that is healthy, to be able to speak frankly about boundaries and consequences. Like your wife, I would also never give a second chance to someone who laid a hand on me…It’s why I do not speak to my father or stepfather. There are some things in life you can get do overs for. Others, you do not. Once that trust is broken, it cannot be fixed.

  100. For what it’s worth, I don’t think that Alpha-ness is so cut and dry, either. My lover is, once again, a good example…

    In public, he is one of the “leader” types. He motivates others, carries out plans well, is very creative, asaerts his opinion without being arrogant, and knows how people work. He’s an excellent speaker, gives great presentations, and truly loves being the center of attention whenever possible. These are good Alpha traits.

    But when we are together, I’m “in charge”. He is incredibly indecisive about everything, from general plans to specific restaurants, travel arrangements, or meeting times. Forget asking him what he wants for dinner or what movie he wants to see, lol. Heck, he won’t even pick out a videogame…he’ll simply play whatever is in my 360 at the time. Emotionally, he is the “woman” of our relationship, and wears both his mind and heart on his sleeve when we’re alone. Sexually, I initiate 99% of the time, and financially I pay our way regardless of activity or price. If this doesn’t scream “lesser Beta”, I don’t know what would.

    But it’s the *combination* of these aspects of his personality that captured my love, not just the first set.

  101. In a way, yes, especially if one defines MGTOW literally…as in going one’s own way, regardless of what that path looks like. Most online MGTOW would not necessarily consider him as such, because he still lives with women and purposefully has children with them ……. But as that is his “way”, it could be a form of MGTOW.

    This is the only concept of MGTOW that makes sense. Each and every MGTOW man has to define his own life. I was MGTOW from the time I was 16-17. I never avoided or was hostile to females, if fact I spent a lot of time around girls. But ever girl that knew me also knew that I was not interested in them as girls but as people. My attitude toward a relationship was that girls were a waste of time and money. Everyone new this was my attitude.

    To this day I have never gotten a clear answer from my wife about why she was okay pursuing a relationship with someone who was so against women. Best I can tell is she just willingly ignored it and continued developing our relationship. BTW she was not the only girl interested, so I guess my attitude was not that threatening to some women.

    That is a very unique reason to go your own way. Normally it takes a much harsher catalyst.

    I am definitely unique in a lot of ways.

    Neither of you are holding a dire threat above the others head in order to manipulate them into doing something they wouldn’t otherwise.

    I didn’t know manipulation had to be a factor in dread game. There must be a fine line in there because I have used consequences before and I think someone could have called it manipulation. For example, I’m HD and my wife is LD and at one point in our marriage I told my wife if she was not willing to work with me regarding sexual intimacy our marriage would not last. Things changed after that. Some sites I like to visit call this destabilizing your partner. To bad I had to find out about this concept after I had already used it.

  102. I was MGTOW from the time I was 16-17. I never avoided or was hostile to females, if fact I spent a lot of time around girls. But ever girl that knew me also knew that I was not interested in them as girls but as people. My attitude toward a relationship was that girls were a waste of time and money. Everyone knew this was my attitude.

    To this day I have never gotten a clear answer from my wife about why she was okay pursuing a relationship with someone who was so against women.

    Well, probably because you *weren’t*.
    You mention that you neither completely avoided nor acted hostile towards women, and that you were interested in them as *people* instead of treating them like some separate species as some men do. The fact that you thought they were a “waste of time and money” just shows you understand that time is a precious resource and that you were looking for an equal partner to voluntarily split finances with, rather than some immature princess who requires her SO to spend his paycheck on her every week. Fact is, you were honest, confident, knew what you wanted, and were still capable of being kind to people instead of becoming a raging asshole “nice guy”.

    Frankly, when I read about the dating habits of MGTOW, like what you put above, it’s exactly what I’d look for in a mate. Someone who will never pedestalize me, who understands I have flaws as well as excellent traits, *doesn’t* think I’m a delicate flower who needs protection from the big, bad world or wants to be pampered like royalty. A man who sees me as I see them…a *person*. It’s a very refreshing view considering the area I live in where there’s tons of male feminists and white knights.

    That’s why my FwB and I are lucky to have found each other. We kick gender roles to the curb and embrace one another’s strengths and weaknesses, regardless of whether we “should” have them or not. It seems you and your wife have a similar relationship.

    I didn’t know manipulation had to be a factor in dread game. There must be a fine line in there because I have used consequences before and I think someone could have called it manipulation. For example, I’m HD and my wife is LD and at one point in our marriage I told my wife if she was not willing to work with me regarding sexual intimacy our marriage would not last. Things changed after that.

    Yes, dread game is all about manipulation. That’s pretty much what it’s designed for…to obtain drastically altered behavior from your SO by deliberately playing on primal fears of abandonment, loss of love/affection, or even pain in some cases.

    I’m guessing by HD and LD you’re talking about high sex drive and low sex drive? If so, I still don’t see any dread game in what you said.
    You’re married.
    You willingly gave up the option of finding new sex partners.
    You want to find satisfaction with your wife, who is now your only available sex partner.
    You told her the marriage wouldn’t work if sex wasn’t more forthcoming.
    She understood that you were serious, and you reached whatever compromise you currently have.

    Okay? That’s…not dread game. Least not in my book. You stated facts, said it wouldn’t work if X, and you handled it like adults who love and care about each other.

    If you were using dread game, you’d have started “accidentally” leaving up websites like Ashley-Madison, or pretending to take calls from other women then hanging up as soon as your wife walked in the room. Hung out in bars or clubs dancing with other women, making sure to get their perfume on your clothes, then going home and refusing to tell your wife where you’d been. Then escalated it by working late but not telling her, ignoring all her phone calls, then showing up at home at 2am, and responding to her anger and fear for your safety by informing her she’s “nagging” and acting irrationally. After all that, you’d bring up the idea of you requiring more sex…and out of not love, but fear of losing you to some club girl and possibly getting STDs in the marriage bed…*then* your wife would start giving you more sex.

    THAT is an example of dread game, GoFigure, not what you did.

  103. Wow, I guess I really didn’t understand dread game.

    That is a very unique reason to go your own way. Normally it takes a much harsher catalyst.

    In all seriousness, to a naive young 16 yr old, loosing all respect for 90% of the human population is a harsh catalyst.

    Let me tell you about a few more interactions I have had with ‘alpha’ males.

    One of my neighbors was once dating an alpha guy and he was over at her place when I was their visiting with her roommates. He came in with all his alpha swank and tried to be the center of attention. I began pointing out all of silly alpha behaviors and a few minutes later he left the room to find his girl. I ran into him one more time at the neighbors. That time I ended up laughing in his face as he ran his alpha game. That relationship ended shortly after and I have no idea if my interactions had any effect on it. But that girl didn’t bring her next boyfriend around the apartment.

    Another time I was in a public place (library or store) and I over hear a PUA guy talking bout how he only targets engaged/married women because he found them easier to land. After a few minutes he notices me staring at him and he looks over. I simply just smiled and told him he better pray that I never run into in a less public location. He hushed right up and slunk out a few minutes later.

    There have also been a few times in groups were I have shut down the alpha. After these experiences I began noticing alpha males avoid me and they make sure their girls are not around me either.

    While I am not alpha and I am rarely the center of attention, I do know that no one gets to be alpha unless I let them. I actually like to think of myself as the rock that my friend called me. While I don’t dominate situations everyone is aware that I am there and act accordingly.

    One more note about male hierarchies. If I am faced with a situation that has one, I will actively destroy it and rip it to shreds. The so called leaders either fall in line with everyone else are end up looking like power hungry buffoons.

    In general I just avoid alpha males and their cronies, but you might see why I posted: ‘The crap coming out of an alpha’s butt hole is more valuable then the crap coming out of their brain through their mouth’. But, if a girl ever wanted a awesome wing man I was a good choice.

    Regardless, I really doubt the idea of alpha males unless you are a women that falls for them.

  104. That last line should read: I really doubt the idea of alpha males. They only exist if you are a women that falls for them.

  105. I doubt you have ever met someone like me. (I know I have never met someone who is like me) If you could get me to a social event like the one we described:
    If we have a social setting with lots of men and women ~ 10% of those men will be alpha and another ~10% greater beta. These 20% of men will dominate socially and draw most female attention. Then we will have ~30% of the men that are wall flowers/socially awkward and are mostly hopeless with women. The last ~50 percent of men (typically called beta) will move between the social circle and the wall flowers.

    Where would you find me? Likely with the wallflowers, but instead of being nervous I would be studding people. Or, you might find me with the wait staff helping to serve others. Or, I might find a side activity to get involved in. Or I might a approach a cute socially challenged girl and dance with her and give her a good experience. You would hardly ever find me in the mix with the dominant people.

  106. Tarn, one more thing I would like to ask you about the concept of alphas.

    I told you a lot about myself so you would see a how my perception might be off:
    1. I am odd (one of my friends nicknamed me odd duck for a reason).
    2. I do not care what other people think about me, so my filter can be poor and I can be tactless.
    3. Generally, I don’t have any fear, so I will go after anyone that seems to be in a superior position.
    These and other traits may make it hard for me to accept the concept of alpha. If my ability to not see it is because of my own personality, I’m asking you to go ahead and point that out.

    So to my main idea of why I doubt the manospheres take on alpha:
    I mostly doubt the idea of alpha because I think every man either sees himself as alpha or sees himself becoming alpha. I don’t think there is any man that looks to another man to lead his life. Each and every man believes he is in charge of himself. In short every man is or wants to be the “pilot of his own life”. I don’t think women have that same instinct/thought. I think women want to belong (in general) and thus they make excellent co-pilots. I believe feminism causes women to fight for the pilots spot, but men have been taught not to fight women and end up just piloting a different life (checking out). This is especially aggravating to the women because they are now the pilot (which is not really what most of them want) and the co-pilot doesn’t care enough to do his job. Again, the point is that every man is alpha or working to become such. I bet your friend would agree with this.

    I think the sphere labels a lot of things alpha that are really something else.
    I think you will find that alpha often equals wealth/resources (women might find this alpha but I don’t think it is).
    Social dominance is called alpha, but social dominance usually just mean red personality or quick on your feet/witty.
    They label ‘bad boys’ as alpha because they are mysterious and a challenge but their is nothing challenging about them. They are just looking for the cheapest tail they can find. They say alphas are leaders, but 99% of humans are followers and most of the leaders are to busy/focused to socially engage. (Leader should not be confused with leadership.)
    They say AMOG but no man will blindly follow another man for long periods. If AMOG exists it is just a mentoring position.

    If someone says that alpha is a man that women want, then I can agree with this. Most women can’t read men worth cow dung. This is why I say alpha only exists for women.

    One of the reasons I think alpha is such a big deal is because the sphere is always talking about how alphas get the women. And how all men should learn game to become more alpha. The response of many of these men is to completely change who they are to try and bed women. Don’t they see how much power they give women over their own lives. They are willing to change everything about themselves just so they can manipulate women. Its all about women. In the large(Macro) scale women control these men more effectively then feminists control the white knights. This is not red-pill it is just a prison of a different color.

    Hopefully this makes some sense, I am trying to get this written fast. I would like to hear your feedback if you get a chance.

    Thank you for letting me use your blog as a space to hash out these ideas without having to go round and round somewhere else. And thank you for taking the time to give me the feedback you already have. I will try to stop blowing up your blog now!

  107. I still get the email updates, and have been reading all your comments with interest! I didn’t feel I had anything to offer, but a few passages from this latest post, goFigure, has me thinking:

    “I don’t think there is any man that looks to another man to lead his life. Each and every man believes he is in charge of himself. In short every man is or wants to be the “pilot of his own life”. I don’t think women have that same instinct/thought. I think women want to belong (in general) and thus they make excellent co-pilots. I believe feminism causes women to fight for the pilots spot, but men have been taught not to fight women and end up just piloting a different life (checking out).”

    Have you seen the film “Big Eyes”? I just saw it about a week ago. It tells the true-life story of the artist Margaret Keene, who did those trendy “big eye” paintings that were the rage in the 1960s. Her husband browbeat her into letting him take over her career. He even claimed that painted them, he did all the interviews with the press, even made up a fake story about his “inspiration” for the artwork. She let him do this, in part because he was her husband, the head of the household, and because (she later said) he kept on hounding her until she submitted. But, she was the one with the ability and talent. Without her, he had nothing to work with. He didn’t have the skill, she did. What he had was the confidence and business acumen to make the most of what she could do.

    She also was dismissively told that nobody wants “Lady art.” So she let her husband take over. Only later, she realized what a lying, controlling bum her husband was, did she fight to claim her own work. (It’s a fascinating story!)

    What I think is that, unlike what some red pill manosphere types might claim, both men and women have been endowed with an abundance of potential, skills, and abilities. But, up until relatively recently, men were the main ones that were “allowed” to do anything with some of that. Margaret Keene lived in a world where women’s roles were far more restricted. Because of that, she let her husband take over, and he went way too far.

    If Margaret Keene’s husband had been a truly good husband, he would have guided her like an “art agent” and advised her, supported her and provided the acumen and confidence she lacked. They could have been a great team. She would have done much better with a man like that in her life, than on her own. Such a man would have deserved her confidence and trust.

    But at the same time, she didn’t need someone to steamroll over her, because it was her work, not anyone else’s, and she needed to have final say over what kind of work she painted, and that sort of thing. She “owned” the artwork, not her husband, though in her case, her husband had such a huge ego that he felt like it was ALL his.

    Getting back to what you were saying, “feminism has taught women to fight for the pilot’s spot” — I think it’s how it’s interpreted. Women should, in my opinion, have the opportunity to pursue the same goals as men. They should be able to be the pilots of their own lives, have the final say. But whatever they pursue, they should be capable (need no extra favors or a “leg up”). At the same time, a lot of women lack the confidence that men do, and many would be better off if they could partner with a man who has skills that they (the women) do not. (In the case of Margaret Keene, that would be confidence and business savvy.) Does this line up with what you think?

    When you and Tarnished talk about “alpha,” I admit that my first gut reaction to that term is “arrogant jerk.” The manosphere-alpha is just an obnoxious boor who plays mind games with women and is, in some ways, a lot like Margaret Keene’s husband. Steamrolls over everyone and has a huge ego.

    Most of the men in my life are not “alphas,” because I define them as decent men. They are not pushovers or wimps, but they are not this hyper-masculine obnoxious jerk that I associate with the manosphere alpha.

    I think “alpha,” whatever that means, has been polluted (in my mind, anyway) because of how it’s so often used by the manosphere.

    And one last thing (sorry). I have been lurking on the red pill girl blog, and in the most recent post, you and Gary G sound so normal and mentally healthy to me. You guys both sound like decent guys. The kind of comments I hear (the first impression given) most often from red pill and manosphere blogs are in HUGE contrast to what guys like you and Gary say. I just have to comment on that. 🙂 Cheers!

  108. Have you seen the film “Big Eyes”? No

    What I think is that……. both men and women have been endowed with an abundance of potential, skills, and abilities.
    Yes, think about my analogy of a pilot and co-pilot. Which one has more skill? Or is a better pilot? Your answer should be neither.

    But, up until relatively recently, men were the main ones that were “allowed” to do anything with some of that.
    Women definitely faced resistance, but their have always been women that did great things. Clara Barton and Marie Currie are a couple of big names. There have been many thousands of unnamed women who did great things before the sexual revolution and they didn’t need to blame others for anything. Many great men also go unnamed/unremembered.

    Margaret Keene lived in a world where women’s roles were far more restricted.
    This is true to an extent. Women of action overcame the challenges they faced. Do not discount the challenges the average man also had to overcome. Women are not alone in their struggles.

    Because of that, she let her husband take over, and he went way too far. ….. she didn’t need someone to steamroll over her, because it was her work, not anyone else’s, and she needed to have final say over what kind of work she painted, and that sort of thing. She “owned” the artwork, not her husband, though in her case, her husband had such a huge ego that he felt like it was ALL his.
    Abuse is abuse is abuse. Anyone who controls or tries to control someone else is the problem, not the person being controlled.

    They could have been a great team. Yes She would have done much better with a man like that in her life, than on her own. Yes Such a man would have deserved her confidence and trust. Yes

    Getting back to what you were saying, “feminism has taught women to fight for the pilot’s spot” — I think it’s how it’s interpreted.
    I don’t think of it as an interpretation. I think of it as a fact. Think long and hard about my analogy of pilot and co-pilot. Which gender do you think fills which spot naturally when they come together as a team? How does feminism change that team building process? Maybe someday I will share my analogy of feminism.

    Women should, in my opinion, have the opportunity to pursue the same goals as men. They should be able to be the pilots of their own lives, have the final say.
    Yes, both the pilot and co-pilot had the same opportunities and received the same(their own) training. When two pilots come together to form a team, one must take the lead and the other must take the role of support. Again which gender do you think naturally fills each role?

    At the same time, a lot of women lack the confidence that men do, and many would be better off if they could partner with a man who has skills that they (the women) do not. (In the case of Margaret Keene, that would be confidence and business savvy.)
    Are you referring to interpersonal relationships or a business arrangement? I think you have done well in describing a business arrangement.

    Does this line up with what you think?
    I carefully picked the analogy of pilot and co-pilot because it think it portrays the natural team building dynamics between men and women. This is generalized, fits, say about 80% of the population. If you think about the analogy you should find it has much more depth then what I have covered here.

    When you and Tarnished talk about “alpha,” I admit that my first gut reaction to that term is “arrogant jerk.” The manosphere-alpha is just an obnoxious boor who plays mind games with women and……. Steamrolls over everyone and has a huge ego.
    Good that means you are better than 90% of women at deciphering what makes a good man.

    And one last thing….. on the red pill girl blog, and in the most recent post, you and Gary G sound so normal and mentally healthy to me. You guys both sound like decent guys. The kind of comments I hear …… most often from red pill and manosphere blogs are in HUGE contrast to what guys like you and Gary say.
    Gary and I became red-pill before there was a red-pill. I chose my life path around 1990 (pre-internet) and Gary was several decades before me. The reason we seem decent is because we chose to be decent and did not have anyone else filling our heads with ideas. Now that the manosphere exists you will have a hard time finding people like us, we are a dying bread.
    Think about your virgin friend, that is cool with the ladies. What will happen to him when he is exposed to the manosphere? He will see some of it as over the top, but he will also see truth there. How will it change him? If I was a betting man, I would bet that he writes women off. He will realize that he has been a virgin for 20 something years and he can make it through life without that experience etc. 🙂 I really don’t know how he would react but if he is rational and thinks things through he will be changed.
    The truth is that the manosphere is a response to our changing society. Your friend has already been changed by that same society. A few generations ago he would possible be married already. You have also been changed by society, maybe you think that is a good thing because you want to make widgets. The numbers suggest that more than 50% of your generation will never get married. There will soon be a critical mass that will tip the scales to the point that marriage and family will be scorned and mocked. (Just a side note: isn’t interesting how closely this mirrors the UN’s agenda 21?)
    I am very concerned for my kids.

  109. Yes, think about my analogy of a pilot and co-pilot. Which one has more skill? Or is a better pilot? Your answer should be neither.

    Sure, I can go along with that. “Different” does not mean “more.”

    Women definitely faced resistance, but their have always been women that did great things. Clara Barton and Marie Currie are a couple of big names. There have been many thousands of unnamed women who did great things before the sexual revolution and they didn’t need to blame others for anything. Many great men also go unnamed/unremembered.

    I don’t think that that we need to completely embrace all of feminist society in order to have an environment more friendly to women making their widgets. It used to be that women were not allowed to vote, were not allowed to hold property. Some colleges would not allow women to attend. We don’t need to go back to that.

    This is true to an extent. Women of action overcame the challenges they faced. Do not discount the challenges the average man also had to overcome. Women are not alone in their struggles.

    I can agree with that as well. Without straying into a whole ‘nother area, other people who were disadvantaged in eras past were still able to overcome challenges, but it doesn’t mean that those disadvantages were acceptable in the first place. But, with that said, one of the biggest disadvantages or challenges anyone faces is in themselves, their own bad habits, bad ideas, lack of work ethic.

    Abuse is abuse is abuse. Anyone who controls or tries to control someone else is the problem, not the person being controlled.

    Also agreed.


    I don’t think of it as an interpretation. I think of it as a fact. Think long and hard about my analogy of pilot and co-pilot. Which gender do you think fills which spot naturally when they come together as a team? How does feminism change that team building process? Maybe someday I will share my analogy of feminism.

    I am talking mostly about in the professional world when I bring this up. I think in marriages, at least in Christian marriages, it will fall to the man to be the head of the household, but he had better be a good husband, so he and his wife can make a good team. (And of course she should be a good wife.)

    Yes, both the pilot and co-pilot had the same opportunities and received the same(their own) training. When two pilots come together to form a team, one must take the lead and the other must take the role of support. Again which gender do you think naturally fills each role?

    Professionally, or personally? In personal relationships, it would more likely fall to the man. Professionally — that would depend. If it were a older, more seasoned woman and a younger, less experienced man, I would probably expect the woman to take the lead. It would depend on the temperament and experience of each. Typically, all other things being equal (professionally), the odds would be that the man would take the lead.

    Are you referring to interpersonal relationships or a business arrangement? I think you have done well in describing a business arrangement.

    I was thinking professionally.

    I carefully picked the analogy of pilot and co-pilot because it think it portrays the natural team building dynamics between men and women. This is generalized, fits, say about 80% of the population. If you think about the analogy you should find it has much more depth then what I have covered here.

    I can go along with this.

    Good that means you are better than 90% of women at deciphering what makes a good man.

    That’s good to hear.

    What I thought I was hearing from other “red-pillers” is that women just can’t do anything as well as men, and the only thing they are “meant” to do is have and raise children, and anything else they try to do will be inferior. Everything else they attempt should take a back seat to what a man can do. While I am sure that a lot of times, guys say that just to get a rise out of everyone, it was disturbing to me (if I were to take it seriously) because that kind of mindset would make a man a very bad husband or father (IMO). But, I’m not sure how seriously I should take it.

    Now that the manosphere exists you will have a hard time finding people like us, we are a dying bread.

    That is too bad.

    Think about your virgin friend, that is cool with the ladies. What will happen to him when he is exposed to the manosphere? He will see some of it as over the top, but he will also see truth there. How will it change him? If I was a betting man, I would bet that he writes women off.

    He is a very unique guy. He already writes some women off. He doesn’t do it with anger, he just feels sad for them.

    He will realize that he has been a virgin for 20 something years and he can make it through life without that experience etc.:) I really don’t know how he would react but if he is rational and thinks things through he will be changed.

    Perhaps . . . but I predict that he will marry the same kinds of women that his brothers have married. They all seem to be happy. I don’t doubt that his brothers have told him some truths and have warned him about what to watch for. I expect he will marry a girl who shares his faith — that will cut down on many of the risks.

    The truth is that the manosphere is a response to our changing society. Your friend has already been changed by that same society. A few generations ago he would possible be married already. You have also been changed by society, maybe you think that is a good thing because you want to make widgets.

    Women can still make widgets without all the rest of this garbage going on. Women don’t have to ride the cock carousel to make widgets! 😉 Here I am, raised in a conservative, Christian environment, and not once was I told that I couldn’t make widgets and that I shouldn’t seek education on making better widgets. All the families around me from my church, the women made widgets and their husbands supported them. Needless to say, these women have also been good wives and mothers, but their husbands never tried to stop them (or their daughters) from the pursuit of widget-making if that was their dream. To me, this is part of a normal, loving family environment.

    What disturbs me (and again, I realize that probably a lot of this talk from the manosphere is just ‘talk,’ or hyperbole) is that some guys are specifically targeting women making widgets, claiming that women can’t/shouldn’t make them, as if that’s a big part of the problem, and I don’t think it needs to be at all. It can be, but it need not be.

    I am very concerned for my kids.

    I understand, and I don’t blame you.

  110. Yes we see things very similarly.

    Sue, you have many good and positive role models all around you, and you should be grateful for that (I was raised in a similar situation). Many others have not been as fortunate and their perspective is vastly different then yours or mine. I know you realize this. Just understand that you will never get many of the things written in the manosphere. To be honest, I am trying to get Tarnished’s insight so I don’t have to go in there and dig them all out myself. And so I can avoid the junk.

    I think the sphere is focused on personal relationships and not professional ones. Just and FYI that may help you (because you seem to do the opposite).

    While I am sure that a lot of times, guys say that just to get a rise out of everyone, it was disturbing to me (if I were to take it seriously) because that kind of mindset would make a man a very bad husband or father (IMO). But, I’m not sure how seriously I should take it.
    You should not think about it. These men would make a bad husband/father in your life, that is all you need to know. And if you meet them in real life you most likely would not be friends.

    Women can still make widgets without all the rest of this garbage going on. Women don’t have to ride the cock carousel to make widgets!😉 Here I am, raised in a conservative, Christian environment, and not once was I told that I couldn’t make widgets and that I shouldn’t seek education on making better widgets. All the families around me from my church, the women made widgets and their husbands supported them. Needless to say, these women have also been good wives and mothers, but their husbands never tried to stop them (or their daughters) from the pursuit of widget-making if that was their dream. To me, this is part of a normal, loving family environment.
    You were raised in a good environment, be grateful. Your comments make it hard for me to see your priorities. So if you would, place these items in order of importance: Kids, Husband, Job, God, Money, Home, Clothes, vacations/fun and independence. Yep, there is overlap. I ask because in one comment you tend to sound feminist and then in another you sound conservative christian.

    What disturbs me (and again, I realize that probably a lot of this talk from the manosphere is just ‘talk,’ or hyperbole) is that some guys are specifically targeting women making widgets, claiming that women can’t/shouldn’t make them, as if that’s a big part of the problem, and I don’t think it needs to be at all. It can be, but it need not be.
    Its probably not just talk or hyperbole, but you should not let that disturb you. Everyone can have their own perspective. You pretty well nailed it when you said “one of the biggest disadvantages or challenges anyone faces is in themselves”.

  111. Yes we see things very similarly.

    That’s what I suspected.

    Sue, you have many good and positive role models all around you, and you should be grateful for that (I was raised in a similar situation). Many others have not been as fortunate and their perspective is vastly different then yours or mine. I know you realize this. Just understand that you will never get many of the things written in the manosphere.

    I think the main thing I’m getting from the manosphere (the organized manosphere, not the individuals, which may or may not share all these views) is that I want nothing to do with them! I think you know what I mean.

    You should not think about it. These men would make a bad husband/father in your life, that is all you need to know. And if you meet them in real life you most likely would not be friends.

    I would imagine so! I don’t anticipate ever having any sort of relationship with one of these men. I’m puzzled, though, to think why any woman would. I also can’t understand — do these men seriously believe they’ll ever have a wife or girlfriend who would go along with this? Even conservative girls (that I am aware of) would run the other way.

    You were raised in a good environment, be grateful. Your comments make it hard for me to see your priorities. So if you would, place these items in order of importance: Kids, Husband, Job, God, Money, Home, Clothes, vacations/fun and independence. Yep, there is overlap. I ask because in one comment you tend to sound feminist and then in another you sound conservative christian.

    I’m confused about what comments make me sound feminist?

    To answer your question:

    I do think there is a lot of overlap, but basically God first, family (husband and children) next, and then everything else.

    I always associate vacations as family time. So I would not consider vacations as trivial, but high on the list (assuming they are done with family).

    Clothes are nice, but trivial!

    Its probably not just talk or hyperbole, but you should not let that disturb you.

    Oh no, I was hoping you’d say it was hyperbole! It does not disturb me in one way, because none of the men who feel this way will ever play a significant role in my life. But I am disturbed that such men are among us here in the western world.

    Everyone can have their own perspective. You pretty well nailed it when you said “one of the biggest disadvantages or challenges anyone faces is in themselves”.

    So true, and this is something that is so often overlooked. I’d add that many in the manosphere would benefit from understanding this at all. As we all would!

    I think you’ve answered a lot of my questions; I thank you!

  112. Just wanted to say that I’ve been following the conversation here, and have just been dealing with a lot lately. I will take time to comment soon!

  113. I told you a lot about myself so you would see a how my perception might be off:
    1. I am odd (one of my friends nicknamed me odd duck for a reason).
    2. I do not care what other people think about me, so my filter can be poor and I can be tactless.
    3. Generally, I don’t have any fear, so I will go after anyone that seems to be in a superior position.
    These and other traits may make it hard for me to accept the concept of alpha. If my ability to not see it is because of my own personality, I’m asking you to go ahead and point that out.

    Hmm. I’m also very odd, so I understand that. While I do care what people think of me, that only applies to aspects of myself related to common sense things, like making sure others perceive me as capable and hygienic. I have never one to go to the mall in a dirty t-shirt and sweatpants, I always shower before leaving the house (which I keep as clean as possible given my 5 birds), and I do *not* think pajamas are acceptable public attire.

    However, I am like you in that I don’t care if people like my opinions or thoughts. If they don’t…oh well? Nobody’s forcing them to agree with me or vice versa. I used to be tactless when I was younger, as I have some difficulty with certain facial expressions and conversational subtleties that it seems most females (and a significant portion of males) mastered a long time ago. With practice, I can say I’ve graduated to “polite bluntness”. I’ll tell you exactly what I think, but will do so in as kind a way as possible/as the situation calls for.

    As for having/not having “fear” of those with a semblance of authority…hmmm. That’s an interesting way to put it. I will not automatically go after anyone in a superior position just *because* they are in it. Like Spawny (and most other INTJs), I’m a “Mastermind”. We generally prefer to be the quiet observers who make plans and judgments from the wings, rather than in the thick of things on stage. The only times I’ve ever confronted someone in a superior position is if I know they are in the wrong or I can do the job better. Otherwise, I’m content to do my own thing, giving some advice now and then. As Ton would say, authority is a burden. I will most assuredly pick up the yoke if nobody else wants it (like in my relationship, but he usually makes it a pleasure for me to be the leader) but I’m naturally more inclined to a combination lone wolf/observant advisor role.

    I do wonder a bit about why you go after those in higher positions, and if this tendency relates to some of your thoughts on who is/isn’t an Alpha. I’d like to touch on this fact before proceeding. Do you only rock the boat if you see that the Betas/Lesser Alphas of the group are unhappy with their superior? Or is it more of a “I’m new here, let’s butt some some heads”? Are you trying to “overthrow” the Alpha in every situation you’re in (job-related, casual meet-up, business parties, etc.)? If so…why? If not, what goes into determining when you do/don’t? Is it only something you do to men, or also women? What do you gain by “going after anyone in a superior position”?

    Before going further, I’m curious to know the motivation behind this aspect of your personality.

  114. I do wonder a bit about why you go after those in higher positions, and if this tendency relates to some of your thoughts on who is/isn’t an Alpha. I’d like to touch on this fact before proceeding. Do you only rock the boat if you see that the Betas/Lesser Alphas of the group are unhappy with their superior?

    No, I like a level playing field for everyone. If I perceive the field as being unequal I will work to equalize it. Most often by picking apart the people in superior positions. Gender is inconsequential; though the only women I have ever had problems with cant manage to get along with anyone.

    Or is it more of a “I’m new here, let’s butt some some heads”?

    No, I will not butt into a new situation unless someone wants me there. Even then I would do so cautiously (I am an introvert (INTJ too) after all). I guess I am mostly referring to a neutral situation; like people coming together for a social event. I refuse to take crap from people. I will admit my first inclination is just to avoid them, but sometimes avoiding one person would be rude to the people I am with at that time. Therefor I will call them out on their crap. The more they persist the more I call them out.

    Are you trying to “overthrow” the Alpha in every situation you’re in (job-related, casual meet-up, business parties, etc.)?

    No, again my inclination is to avoid these people because they add nothing to my life. They have earned negative respect from me.
    In a job-related environment, I do not see any alpha. Each person has their position within the company period. If there every is a problem you take it to HR.
    Casual meet-up: I refuse to recognize a superior so if someone tries to take that position I will take them down a notch or two.
    business parties: haaaahaaa, good luck getting me there. If I was there I would just chill with the wife.

    If so…why? If not, what goes into determining when you do/don’t?

    I think this has been answered.

    Is it only something you do to men, or also women?

    I have never had a problem with a woman. The only woman that I can think of that would fit within this discussion was to thick (mentally) and self absorbed to learn or adapt. HR was much more effective then talking to her.

    What do you gain by “going after anyone in a superior position”?

    I don’t really go out of my way to attack ‘alphas’, but if I am somewhat ‘stuck’ in a situation I will definitely take them down (this is what I meant by tearing them down). Mostly just by pointing out their crap (behaviors and lies) and making them self conscious. It is hard to be alpha when you look like a selfish manipulative liar (they could be one or more of these). What I get out of it? well if I am ‘stuck’ around them I get them to shut up and if I ever run into them again they avoid me because they know the disdain I have for everything they are. Precious alphas do not like being treated as less than dirt, their ego cant handle it.

    While I do care what people think of me, that only applies to aspects of myself related to common sense things, like making sure others perceive me as capable and hygienic. I have never one to go to the mall in a dirty t-shirt and sweatpants, I always shower before leaving the house (which I keep as clean as possible given my 5 birds), and I do *not* think pajamas are acceptable public attire.

    I will often dress in sweats, etc. out in public as a way of saying “I don’t care what you think, your opinion does not matter’ to everyone. I only care about people who have earned my respect. (This is separate from my concern about everyone as a child of god. I do actually care that people are meeting their needs in life and I will help them when I can. I just don’t care what they think of me.)

  115. “I will often dress in sweats, etc. out in public as a way of saying “I don’t care what you think, your opinion does not matter’ to everyone.”

    Hm. That’s interesting. I’m a very casual dresser (I live on an Island), but I’m casual because
    1) It’s comfortable
    2) It’s unpretentious
    IOW, I’m casual more to set people at ease rather than to offend them.
    I actually go out of my way NOT to offend others (unless and until they give me reason to).

  116. Per “alpha” stuff, I posted the following at Gamer’s a few days ago:

    “To the have-nots, haves can sound like braggarts and jerks even when not trying. Everything goes through the filter of insecurity.”
    I think you have it partially right. But the filter of insecurity is “trust” based, not jealousy based. The sorts of things that might lead to dopamine fixes (danger, excitement and so forth) might up libido, but they can have a very negative effect on the overall trust dynamic of the group (which is more comfort based). A guy who comes across as a braggart (just hypothetically, Gamer…I wasn’t there, not enough information so I’m not going by specifics just generalities) is indirectly implying to the group he can’t (nessarily) be trusted. He considers himself to be above (and outside) the group. And we’re all social animals so trust is important if you want to be accepted (liked) by the group.

    Here are a couple of scenarios to illustrate:

    A guy introduces himself at a party. Says, “call me Bill” or some such. You make small talk about hobbies. He shares some of the same hobbies. He’s very amiable and you both tell a couple of jokes and make plans to meet up for fishing…or some such. Later, you learn that guy is the Chief Cardiologist at John Hopkins, or something. Are you jealous? No. What strikes you is how normal and agreeable the guy was. He made himself part of your group.

    By contrast, imagine you meet Bill at a party and he says, “You can call me Doctor.” And he proceeds to tell you in the next five minutes how important he is.

    Completely different impression. Now, he’s just some dick doctor with an ego complex.”

  117. Gamer went on to mention something about “social proof” making the difference, and so forth. I didn’t want to debate him on the point, and I agree that social proof is important, but I disagree that it is what makes the real difference (nor is it the difference in my two scenarios above).

    If the second doctor had a huge class ring to knock on the table and a model looking wife at his side and still acted the same way he would be similarly rejected (and not trusted). But if he’d been the first example folks would still take to him, but they would be more likely to suspect he was very successful (and might open up and ask some questions that would give it away).

  118. Thanks for the input Liz.. It really made me think. It helps explain why I can be so antagonistic to certain people. I trust no one until they earn trust and I definitely don’t trust the group.

    Liz, Tarn, anyone;
    I am still stuck on the question of does alpha really exist? and if it does what is it?

    I keep coming back to the idea that if it exists it is nothing more than social dominance (i.e. wealth, fame, witty, etc.), much of it is faked, and it only exists for people that care about those things (which is most people).

    The other definition that seems to work as a general rule is alpha = self confident. This is what lead me to the idea that all men are either alpha or are becoming alpha. (see post I made on Apr. 11 6:38PM). This idea also works for the whole female attraction angle. Everywhere I read, women seem to like confident men.

    The second idea would also explain why someone like me does not recognize alpha men. I have already reached a place of self confidence and do not recognize any other man as inherently better then me. Though many of their talents can far surpass mine.

    thoughts?

  119. The first definition could still explain why women are attracted to alpha, and it could explain why I don’t recognize it. Because I place little to no value in those traits.

    If the first definition is true, then alpha only exists for people who care about those things. And does not exist for others. If the second definitions is true then alpha is nothing more than the process of becoming a man.

  120. I don’t think there is any set definition for alpha, goFigure. I know my view is different from others. From my perspective, “alpha” is contextual/situational. The alpha is the person (or people) everyone in the group looks up to most. I’ve heard the term “situational alpha”…from my perspective it’s pretty much always situational. Folks that most people would classify as “alpha” are just contextually alpha more often.
    Confidence is a part of it…one isn’t likely to be able to lead or be successful at all without it. FWIW, That’s even true of women in some cases (if I walk into the room with a patient and seem nervous imagine how that makes the patient feel! I’d be a shite nurse).
    Social proof (status and all that) might be part of it, but not necessarily.

    When I consider the situation of the two hypothetical doctors above, I think the first is more alpha because he was secure enough he didn’t feel the need to announce his own importance. But I’ve noticed a lot of people in the sphere seem to believe the second guy (the blowhard) is more ipso facto alpha. I disagree.

  121. I agree with Liz on this topic, namely that being Alpha is situational, not stable. Some people are put in more circumstances that allow them to be leaders/show their abilities than others, so onlookers may project alpha hood onto them. But no man or woman is 100% alpha in every situation or in every group.

    As I was saying above, I typically have little need to be an alpha in my social circle, in public, or while at work. I sometimes take on that mantle temporarily, kinda like Liz with her nursing example, but other than that I am cool with having others lead so long as they’re capable. It’s completely reversed in my relationship with my FwB, where I make almost all our decisions, do the research on pricing, buy our meals/entertainment, initiate sex, and provide him with an emotional outlet/solid friendship. Basically, I take the initiative to get shit done because he likes the opportunity to relax 100%, safe in the knowledge I’ve got everything ready to go, and I like being in control of things that involve me (and my finances, to be frank).

    As for liking confidence…well, yeah. Who *doesn’t* want a SO or potential mate who’s confident in themselves and their abilities? Confidence = sexy for women and men alike!

    Warning: talk of sex ahead

    I can honestly say that the absolute hottest thing my lover has ever done was to lounge on my bed, completely naked, stroking his cock with one hand with the other casually behind his head, and giving me his best bedroom smile. Seriously, one minute I’m brushing my teeth, next I’m clutching the doorframe thinking “holy fuck, my man is beautiful”. He was smoking hot because of his confidence in how much I wanted him.

    Similarly, he has told me I’m so much sexier now than when we first started having sex 10 years ago, simply because I am 1000x more confident in my body and sexual knowledge than I was as a socially anxious wallflower who thought she’d die a virgin.

  122. Liz, thank you. I can agree with your take that alpha is about perspective. You have clearly stated your perspective. That alpha is situational.

    My perspective is that alpha does not exist.

    Here is the challenge; if ‘alpha’ is amorphous then a majority of what is discussed in the red-pill has a very weak base. The red-pill is supposed to be about the truth, but how do you build truth on a hazy/situational concept? Answer: you don’t.

    Let me point out some truths as I see them (you guys correct me if you see anything wrong), that the red-pill misses:

    What is the meaning of alpha?
    Truth: alpha has no real concrete meaning

    Does increasing your ‘alpha’ qualities increase female attractions towards you?
    Truth: what exactly are alpha qualities? and whatever they are some women will find them attractive and some will find them unattractive. Generally speaking, women will be more attracted to men that have drive and a purpose in life.

    Do alphas dominate the SMP/MMP?
    Truth: depends on what your looking for. For girl crazy men (most red-pill & most blue-pill men (most red-pill peeps can not accept the truth that they are the same as blue-pill peeps, they just come at it from different sides)), it would appear this way.

    Does the red-pill actually get to the truth?
    Truth: It most certainly hits the truth about frivorce, legal situation etc. but it lacks in covering female motivation like hypergamy, and their desire for no hierarchy. In short the red-pill is good at dissecting the symptoms but not very good at finding the disease.

    I know red-pill people think they have got the truth of it, but they don’t understand their own inconsistencies. I am not bashing anyone, I find great things around the red-pill. That is why I read. To often they seem to lack self reflections (something the accuse women of all the time).

  123. thanks for the input Tarn.

    You are absolutely correct that both male and females find confidence attractive.

    I think that most female weaknesses are shared by males, and that most male strengths are shared by women. The two genders just have strikingly different thought processes and ways of dealing with things.

  124. been following along some …

    goFigure – I think that one of the reasons defining alpha for you is so challenging is that you already, naturally, ‘get’ it.

    let me try to explain that a little bit.

    y’all know I have a special needs daughter. I began working with her principal the spring b4 she began kinder, and once school began, we had her through the whole special ed testing/ard process before the holidays. anyone in the field will tell you – this was super fast-tracked. but I had my ducks in a row. the principal picked out the perfect kinder teacher – as a matter of fact, the principal put two teachers in her classroom the first two weeks of school just for my daughter so they could evaluate her properly and take care of the other students. the principal also was in and out of that classroom multiple times every single day. that teacher did not have a history with sped kids, but she did have the ability to be taught and guided and pushed hard without cracking while producing well, which the principal did and did well. that teacher was so good we ended up having her again in 2nd grade (she changed grades that year) AND I wrote an extensive recommendation for her to be accepted into an elite, specialized training program for sped teacher-wannabes which gained her acceptance that year after having failed on previous attempts.

    over the years she was in public school, we worked with regular ed classroom teachers, sped teachers, specialized teachers/specialists, occupational therapists, physical therapists, as well as principals, asst principals, nurses, staff – we covered the whole board.

    and I can tell you this … those who are great at what they do DO.NOT.GET.IT! they think what they do is NORMAL. with the plethora of staff we dealt with over the years, I can tell you, they are the exception to the rule, and the difference btw a great teacher/specialist who works with kids and a terrible one is huge. but the great ones don’t see it b/c they are so naturally great at what they do.

    It sounds like you’ve intentionally and strongly developed this internal confidence, at a very young age no less, of who you are and who you are not that is now so ingrained into who you are that the two could not be separated even if you tried. since it’s been a part of you for so long, you can no longer see the truth of who you are – that you’re naturally alpha.

    another example … my parents were terrible and abusive. I decided when I was a child I not only wanted to be a mommy, but I wanted to be a great mommy. I digested everything I could along the way, evaluated it, and stored it for when I would someday be a mommy – this even included my health and preparing my body to be pregnant someday and praying, a lot. and although I didn’t become a mommy till I was 33 years old, I had spent all those years, since I was a young girl, preparing, learning, gathering a wide data base of information.

    one of the comments I have received so much over the years it’s almost ridiculous if it weren’t also so sad, is, “Wow! You really *KNOW* your child!” I honestly don’t get this; doesn’t every mom *know* their child? apparently not as I’ve had this comment from pediatricians, specialty doctors, nurses, reg-ed and sped teachers, ot’s, pt’s, and more. and it’s not like these people all know each other to have a pow wow and all come to the same conclusion together. I think it’s sad that moms are so caught up in their own lives that they don’t know their kids – it’s sad for the kids. and I can’t tell you how I do this, how I know my kids, b/c it’s natural for me. it’s something that is so important to me that I began young to intentionally learn b/c my example at home sucked. it’s ingrained into who I am.

    ***

    and since my comment is already long 🙂

    the other side of alpha, as Liz and Tarn have eluded to, is that no one is alpha all the time b/c everyone has their insecurities. everyone. you seem to have a natural intuition to pick those out in people and use them to level the playing field when you so choose. so, I would imagine, to you … this would discount the person ever being alpha b/c weakness does not equal being alpha.

    I would agree with Tarn and Liz that most alphas are situational alphas, and some are able to cover more situations being alpha than others. are there some who are probably 99% alpha with 1% insecurity weakness and don’t get it? sure. but i’d guess that’s pretty rare. everyone has weakness, some are just better at adapting their weakness so as not to hinder or lower or diminish their strengths. those alphas are also able to choose when to exercise their alpha-ness and when to let it go – iow, they do not NEED to be alpha all the time b/c they know they CAN be when they want to be – whether this is a conscious knowing or unconscious.

  125. ”My perspective is that alpha does not exist.
    Here is the challenge; if ‘alpha’ is amorphous then a majority of what is discussed in the red-pill has a very weak base.
    The red-pill is supposed to be about the truth, but how do you build truth on a hazy/situational concept? Answer: you don’t.

    What you say above could apply to many if not most descriptive adjectives or adverbs: Fast, thin, fat, tall, intelligent, salient, reasonable, brilliant and so forth…these things are all relative. Is a six-foot tall person “tall”? Not if everyone else in the room is seven feet tall. I’d say for “alpha” we are relating the person to the general average (which is, again, situational). Or we could just chuck all adjectives as “amorphous” but human communication (especially online) kind of requires a means of description even if it isn’t possible for that description to be perfect.

    I’ve heard that Eskimos (is that word still PC?) have something like a hundred words to describe snow, depending on the “type”…but we just have adjectives like “slushy” and “dirty” and so forth that don’t give a complete picture. I’d say it’s the same for the conceptualization of “alpha”.

  126. Just rereading the above, I hope it doesn’t come across as terse. I didn’t intend it to be that way and this discussion is very interesting to me. Sometimes my INTJ shows.

  127. “Does the red-pill actually get to the truth?
    Truth: It most certainly hits the truth about frivorce, legal situation etc. but it lacks in covering female motivation like hypergamy, and their desire for no hierarchy. In short the red-pill is good at dissecting the symptoms but not very good at finding the disease.

    I know red-pill people think they have got the truth of it, but they don’t understand their own inconsistencies. I am not bashing anyone, I find great things around the red-pill. That is why I read. To often they seem to lack self reflections (something the accuse women of all the time).”

    Of course you are right. It’s difficult for anyone to understand his or her own inconsistencies. It’s rare for anyone to even try.

  128. Whenever someone in the sphere makes the claim that love is “just chemical” I respond by saying: all we are is chemicals.

  129. This is an excellent explanation by Liz. Honestly, I think that there will never be a 100% accepted definition of Alpha or Beta, just as there is no fully accepted definition for MGTOW (see my post “MGTOW Survey” for example). We only have general concepts because these terms denote slightly different things to everyone who uses them. Even the most Alpha man I know would almost certainly still be seen as a Beta by someone like Ton or TSK, simply because they have a very strict and traditional way of viewing men whereas my social circle is pretty lenient and tolerant of different forms of masculinity.

    I agree that it makes discussion pretty damn difficult at times, or with new people, but that’s just why I try to be as clear/blunt as possible and ask for clarification when something amorphous or hazy is said.

  130. Thanks, and thanks, Tarn. 🙂

    Re: chemicals.
    I find it a succinct way of summarizing things when people say they just want to “look at reality, yo!” but very obviously show their own internal inconsistencies about what is “real” and “truth” and so forth.

    It’s also true that music is just noise.

  131. Ame,

    Thank you for your comment. It had me thinking on and off all evening. I eventually even had my wife read it and give me feed back. The short of it is; you probably hit on a lot of truth. But only people that know me well would ever see my alpha traits, everyone else would just see another beta/gamma man.

    Liz, Tarn great comments:

    Or we could just chuck all adjectives as “amorphous” but human communication (especially online) kind of requires a means of description even if it isn’t possible for that description to be perfect.

    I am a scientist after all. Adjectives are not valued in the hard sciences. But I think the social sciences lurv them. LOL. I suppose that is my own challenge.

    Whenever someone in the sphere makes the claim that love is “just chemical” I respond by saying: all we are is chemicals.

    I guess you probably didn’t know that I am a biochemist that has spent years studying inter cellular signalling pathways and DNA expression as well as neurotoxicology when you made this comment. I could go on and on about how cool the chemicals inside your body are. 🙂

    BTW, I would suggest that love is more a choice than anything else. The chemicals (neurotransmitter high) just don’t last that long.

    .

    I would like to bounce another idea off you guys if your interested/willing. It is related to this comment I made: In short the red-pill is good at dissecting the symptoms but not very good at finding the disease. and this phrase I made up:

    Men think and act.
    Women feel and adapt.

  132. “I am a scientist after all. Adjectives are not valued in the hard sciences. But I think the social sciences lurv them. LOL.”

    Of course! Human language communication isn’t (typically) a hard science. Words and behaviors can be interpreted in all sorts of ways.
    My first degree was in Chemistry.
    (Chemical engineering at first, but I cut it short for my Mrs degree) 🙂

    “Men think and act.
    Women feel and adapt.”

    I think that is roughly true…though it we’re dealing in absolutes and not the “amorphous” it isn’t precisely true.
    @;-)

    (that’s my winky emoticon, with a fluffy hairdo, because I can’t stand the new wink)

  133. I imagine we’re all just going to make our own emoticons, since the new ones are so poorly made…How’s this for a wink? ¡-)

    “Men think and act.
    Women feel and adapt.”
    Hmmm. I only agree with this in a very general sense. Like Liz already mentioned, it seems a bit too traditional if it was meant to convey an absolute regarding how individuals are. Men definitely have an emotional side, and women are definitely capable of deep thoughts. If anything, I might argue that most people with a masculine mindset are less likely to act *if* left to their own devices. How many times do you read a comment in the ‘sphere where the man honestly just wants to spend a quiet weekend at home doing “nothing”, but his wife/girlfriend has parties, shows, and shopping that she drags him to, AND a honey-do list a foot long?

  134. “I imagine we’re all just going to make our own emoticons, since the new ones are so poorly made…How’s this for a wink? ¡-)

    It’s awesome and I’m totally going to steal it as soon as I can figure out how you made it!
    😀

  135. Cheated a little, I have to admit. I’m on my phone (as always, since I’ve no Internet or computer otherwise) and have all these cool symbols, including Spanish ones like the “upside-down” question mark and exclamation point.

    €£¥₩♤♡◇♧○●□■¤▪|☆○●•°~`¿¡

  136. April 30, 2016 at 9:12 AM

    Whenever someone in the sphere makes the claim that love is “just chemical” I respond by saying: all we are is chemicals.
    ======

    awesome 🙂

    my sister is a science teacher … I get stuff like this from her all the time 🙂

  137. goFigure

    April 30, 2016 at 11:20 AM

    “But only people that know me well would ever see my alpha traits, everyone else would just see another beta/gamma man.”

    I would guess that’s true for many men who don’t ‘get’ the whole debate out there. when I share some of the RP stuff w/my husband, he just looks at me like, “Isn’t that normal?” … or, “What’s the big deal w/that?” he doesn’t have to strut his feathers all the time, but when it’s time to stand his ground, he does so and does it well. he puts me in my place all the time without thinking about it.
    ===========================

    “I am a scientist after all. Adjectives are not valued in the hard sciences. But I think the social sciences lurv them. LOL. I suppose that is my own challenge.”

    ahhh … adjectives! I WUV them! i’m much more a social scientist girl than a science-scientist girl 🙂

    ==========================

    “I guess you probably didn’t know that I am a biochemist that has spent years studying inter cellular signalling pathways and DNA expression as well as neurotoxicology when you made this comment. I could go on and on about how cool the chemicals inside your body are.:)”

    okay … that is sooo cool! and it also explains your fascination to dissect all this RP stuff. I have now linked you with my bff’s husband in personality – he’s an electrical engineer who works in one of those jobs he can’t talk about … but the scientific / logical / way-of-reasoning part of him makes me think of you, or how I would perceive you to be, or … I guess it’s time to stop ‘talking’ b/c i’m starting to get my own brain all twisted up! 🙂

  138. goFigure

    April 30, 2016 at 11:20 AM

    “I would like to bounce another idea off you guys if your interested/willing. It is related to this comment I made: In short the red-pill is good at dissecting the symptoms but not very good at finding the disease. and this phrase I made up:”

    most of everything is better at dissecting the symptoms and terrible at finding the disease. it’s just easier to deal w/what one can see than what one cannot. and … when diving in deeper to find the disease, we are then confronted with our raw selves … not always a pleasant place to be.

    ================

    “Men think and act.
    Women feel and adapt.”

    that would definitely be a scientific way to classify men and women @;) (borrowing from Liz – love the curly-q hair!)

    i think men have an ability to compartmentalize things in ways women generally do not b/c our emotions flow too easily btw compartments, getting things mixed up. i can see a conversation with a man going along where he’s in the compartment of the topic we’re on, and i bring up something pulled from another compartment, and he’s wondering where in the heck that came from. but it’s b/c my emotions/feelings flow between compartments.

  139. I would like to hear what you guys think about this:

    In reading red-pill sites I come across the idea that women are hypergamous, always looking for something more, focused on alpha males, always looking for the best possible outcome for themselves, etc, etc, etc. These ideas are repeated over and over. Its like these men believe they have uncovered some hidden secret about the motivation of women.

    My own thought is that its much more simple than that and can be related to my women feel and adapt phrase. If women feel left out/ excluded from the group they will adapt so that they fit in. Our modern culture/media tells women that if they do not have it all then something is wrong. This makes women feel something is missing, their life is lacking, everyone else has more than them and they will seek out ways to adapt. Leading to frivorce, cash and prizes et. al. It takes a women who has been taught that this is all a lie plus she needs to have a strong will to break from this message (the group). How many women are really getting the right message and have the self confidence/ will power to break from the heard?

    This is why I say that red-pill people do a good job of getting the symptoms (divorce, gender war) correct but they are not good at getting the cause (women motivation). The red-pill claims, all the time, that women always want more. But I would suggest that women are being told they need more and their nature to fit in then takes over. RP guys talk and act like women are the enemy, but I would suggest it is the message women receive that is the enemy.

    I really doubt there are very many women out there that want to blow up their families and destroy their mans life. I do think there are a lot of women that may feel left out and will look to do whatever they need to be part of the group. You guys are women, what do you think.

    I could write a lot more, but I will let you guys chime in.

  140. Speaking solely for myself here:

    This makes much more sense, as women are trend followers to a greater extent than men. If the trend is to drive a Jetta, only use Maybelline brand makeup, have bellbottom jeans make a comeback, and dye ones hair red, we’re gonna see an incline in sales of those particular styles/products. Then, next season, it starts all over again…

    Unless you’re the type who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about such things.

    This is probably easier to do if you are comfortable as you are and have (here’s that dreaded word again) confidence in your own beliefs/opinions. Or maybe you’re like me, a person already so used to going “against the grain” of what everyone in society and your family expect you to be, that having some random TV commercial or celebrity tell you what is “hot” or “in style” only invokes a reaction of So What/I Don’t Care.

    It’s also easier to not give a damn about keeping up with the Jonses if you can’t afford it AND aren’t stupid enough to go into debt or desperate enough to suck the teat of Big Daddy Government. Yeah, ok, I have a pretty good job now…certainly better than the one I left…and I’m far from destitute or even poor. As a single person with no dependents, I’m actually considered middle-class to upper middle-class going based purely on my income. (‘Course, unmarrieds get taxed more too…) But I won’t be taking a weeklong trip to Europe anytime soon, as cool as it would be to visit Spawny. 🙂 Wasting my hard earned money on frivolous crap I couldn’t care less about, just to impress people who don’t care about me is so far down on my To-Do list that it ranks underneath something as inane as Sweeping Behind My Fridge.

    When one actually knows and appreciates the value of a dollar because you were always taught there are NO such things as free handouts + you want something, you get up off your ass and buy it yourself…Well. I think that’s different than the currently accepted concept of hypergamy. Probably also comes from not thinking of men as wallets, but as real friends, which seems to be yet another distinction between women who support Men’s Rights vs those who dont.

  141. Wasting my hard earned money on frivolous crap I couldn’t care less about, just to impress people who don’t care about me is so far down on my To-Do list that it ranks underneath something as inane as Sweeping Behind My Fridge.

    Right On. INTJ much? (| @ @ |)
    { }
    U

    Lets see if this face works.

  142. “This is why I say that red-pill people do a good job of getting the symptoms (divorce, gender war) correct but they are not good at getting the cause (women motivation). The red-pill claims, all the time, that women always want more. But I would suggest that women are being told they need more and their nature to fit in then takes over. RP guys talk and act like women are the enemy, but I would suggest it is the message women receive that is the enemy.

    I really doubt there are very many women out there that want to blow up their families and destroy their mans life. I do think there are a lot of women that may feel left out and will look to do whatever they need to be part of the group. You guys are women, what do you think.”

    I think it’s a combination of things but ultimately, yes I think it comes down to social conditioning/ “comparison is the thief of joy” and all that.

    When behaviors that should be shamed are applauded (EPL) and behaviors that should be applauded are shamed it’s no surprise that women (who are far more herd-minded and herd-influenced than men) follow. Changing the incentives will change the behavior.

  143. Our oldest son is so INTJ at times he almost reminds me of Doctor House.
    Mike is much more sensitive…I’ve learned to be consideration from him. I really wasn’t very considerate in my youngest years, mainly because I didn’t understand that things that didn’t matter at all to me matter to a lot of people (gifts, celebrating holidays/birthdays/anniversaries and so forth).

  144. May 1, 2016 at 9:02 AM
    “I think INFPs are pretty rare around these spheres, Ame!”

    yeah … that’s kinda what Spawny told me when he introduced me to the group – he said most of y’all are intj’s.

    curious … what is your husband?

  145. Thanks for the feedback ladies. I suspected that would would not see things to differently.

  146. You’re welcome.
    I saw your recent comment at RPG’s blog. Was there anything about Horseman’s thread that you wanted to discuss here?

  147. May 1, 2016 at 5:09 PM
    “You’re welcome.
    I saw your recent comment at RPG’s blog. Was there anything about Horseman’s thread that you wanted to discuss here?”

    Tarn – that sure got interesting at both places, didn’t it 🙂

    i *think* … and i’m not Horseman, so i can’t know for sure, but i think what he was saying at spawny’s is that this group of men do not think of women in any form of having a romantic relationship with them. they might be objects of self-pleasure (porn), or they might be co-workers (just another human doing a job), but not within their sphere of life. i think he’s saying that if the female population stopped to exist in their worlds, they would be just fine. they have no need for women to live fulfilling lives.

    ***

    my take is from my Christianity … in Genesis 2:20-22 it says, “But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.”

    before this, God had created Adam, gave him a beautiful place to live, food to eat, and a job to do. He functioned well without a woman. the only thing God noticed was that while the animals all had mates/pairs/helpers, the human man did not. so God created woman, from man, for man.

    in Genesis 3:16, after they ate the fruit and sinned, God gave them all consequences. part of the consequences of the sin of the woman was, “Your desire shall be for your husband,
    And he shall rule over you.”

    so, imho, i believe God made woman from man, for man, and that her desire is for her husband. imho, even if a woman is not married, in general, she has a desire for a man – desire encompassing every kind of desire a woman would have for a man.

    to sum that all up … i do believe men, in general, can live without women (until, of course, no more men are created b/c there are no more women to create them with!)

    but women, since we were created from man and for man and given a desire for our husbands, will in general always have a desire for a man or men.

  148. Liz,

    Mike and mine are both ENFP.
    They have more outer emotions than INTJs like us…and obviously that son of yours! *wink*

  149. Ame,

    Heh. Interesting is definitely a term one could use. I was mildly surprised at how Toad was at Bloom’s blog and was saddened at how BV was at Spawny’s. I’m obviously not sure, because we don’t get along on good days, but it seems he might be having a bad week. Strangely, I care.

    I do hope Horseman replies further. I’d like to see exactly how he meant it, and what his definition/usage of the term “thinking of” is. It is a good conversation, and wasn’t going badly imo.

    From a Biblical standpoint, that is excellent logic. Having desire for someone even knowing you’ll have to/should submit to them was indeed part of Eve’s/womankinds curse. I am unsure if, from this perspective, I’d agree that men can/should live without women. It’s been a number of years since I was a Christian, but I’d thought there was a part that said “it is not good for man to be alone” in Genesis somewhere around that part. And I recall that there was a letter (Corinthians?) where it was stated that it is better to remain single…but if one is unable to do so “purely”, than to get married. You’d know better than I, without a doubt.

    I am a Deist and believe in evolution and abiogenesis. As such, I’ve no reason to think either sex was cursed with anything or that there was a literal Garden or any consequences that commanded women to submit or men to toil. However, much like Cill and Spawny, I do think the Bible and Torah are excellent historical texts with much to learn about the laws, myths, and customs of that time period and area.

  150. “Mike and mine are both ENFP.
    They have more outer emotions than INTJs like us…and obviously that son of yours! *wink*”

    yep … that “NFP” is a bit emotive 😉

    i’m glad my husband lets me rant on till i run out of rant … he just ignores me, and i get it all out of my system. it works well 🙂

  151. “Interesting is definitely a term one could use. I was mildly surprised at how Toad was at Bloom’s blog and was saddened at how BV was at Spawny’s. I’m obviously not sure, because we don’t get along on good days, but it seems he might be having a bad week. Strangely, I care.”

    ditto all the above.

    i, too, do care about those guys … BV and Ton, too. amazing how we get attached to people we’ve never met irl.

    and i care about you girls, too 🙂

    ***

    yep, the Bible says it’s not good for man to be alone … it’s all there in Genesis 2:

    “18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

    23 And Adam said:

    “This is now bone of my bones
    And flesh of my flesh;
    She shall be called Woman,
    Because she was taken out of Man.”
    24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”

    and yes, Paul in the new testament said that it is better for men to marry than burn with sexual passion and desire.

    so while i think that man *can* live alone, without women, that God built in a desire for most of them to be with women.

    ” I do think the Bible and Torah are excellent historical texts with much to learn about the laws, myths, and customs of that time period and area.”

    i know others who believe the same. interestingly enough … many people who do not believe in Christianity have read more of the bible than those of us who do 😦

    i’m good at knowing what’s in the bible, but i’m terrible about remember exact places – i always have to look things up.

    it’s not just the bible … but it’s anything. i can walk out of a movie and have forgotten the name of the main character, but i’ll remember the story and feelings and ideas and values, etc. i do not remember titles, names, song titles, authors, etc. crazy brain.

  152. Ame
    i *think* … and i’m not Horseman, so i can’t know for sure, but i think what he was saying at spawny’s is that this group of men do not think of women in any form of having a romantic relationship with them. they might be objects of self-pleasure (porn), or they might be co-workers (just another human doing a job), but not within their sphere of life. i think he’s saying that if the female population stopped to exist in their worlds, they would be just fine. they have no need for women to live fulfilling lives.

    I think you got it.

    Heh. Interesting is definitely a term one could use. I was mildly surprised at how Toad was at Bloom’s blog and was saddened at how BV was at Spawny’s. I’m obviously not sure, because we don’t get along on good days, but it seems he might be having a bad week. Strangely, I care.

    Toad has an agenda and uses scripture to try to make his point. You could find scriptures to make the exact opposite points (why do you think there are so many types of Christians). I got nothing to add about BV.

    If you are curious about my take as a christian: There are very few places the scriptures refer to the two genders separately. So whether you are man or women you need to focus on living the two great commandments. (I like living a simple life. I really don’t need it much more complicated than that).

    As far as horseman: I would not want his marriage. Mine is much different. I answered his initial question as directly as I could. There is a lot more that goes into a relationship than what I said. I thought Tarn and Liz both made some excellent points at spawnys.

    I have no idea what personality type my wife is, but I learned about my own a few weeks ago.:)

  153. goFigure –

    “I have no idea what personality type my wife is, but I learned about my own a few weeks ago.:)”

    and?!!!

    ===

    “living the two great commandments. (I like living a simple life. I really don’t need it much more complicated than that).”

    1 and 2a and 2b

    Love God.
    Love yourself.
    Love your neighbor as yourself.

    ===

    i wouldn’t want Horseman’s marriage, either. i would think that would make people bitter over time. i wonder if he’s talking about lubby dubby love … or real love. i cannot imagine living with someone for that long, and if you get along well, not developing some kind of love for each other – unless you pointedly block it. but i’m a woman; maybe that’s a male thing?

    ===

    “If you are curious about my take as a christian: There are very few places the scriptures refer to the two genders separately.”

    hadn’t thot of it exactly that way before, but you’re absolutely right.

  154. when i mentioned the poly thing to my husband as presented by Toad and others, he looked at me and said, “You’d never go for that!”

    he’s right. i couldn’t do it. i’m not good at sharing 😉

  155. when i mentioned the poly thing to my husband as presented by Toad and others, he looked at me and said, “You’d never go for that!”

    My wife would never go for it either.

    I do find it interesting that these men claim that women have all the power in our current legal system. Then they make all these argument for why men should have all the power. Like men never abuse power, ya right. How about, if someone else has all the power why don’t you quite whining about them sharing it with you and figure out what you can do to help yourself (that might be one of my tactless moments).

  156. goFigure – you probably did mention the intj, and i missed it. i tend to speed read sometimes and miss things.

    a tactless moment? sheesh … glad only God can count all mine in my lifetime 😉

  157. goFigure – okay, since you opened that can of worms …

    when some men say ‘all divorced women’ have the same sob story about blah blah blah … … i’ve noticed all the same men have their own, similar stories. i don’t get offended … and there’s no point in pointing out the obvious … but i do notice.

  158. OK, here goes my last great piece about the RP. I am posting it here, so you guys can help me work out the bugs before I post it at RPG site. I think it is relevant to the question of “can a women be RP” currently being discussed?

    Sue, this is my feminist analogy that I mentioned I might share. Current topics have convinced me to bring it out for analysis.

    For a many hundreds of years human males and females liked to play the game of life together on team US (us as in you and me). Both genders found this arrangement mutually beneficial and they would both sacrifice to make team US work.

    Now there were some people (more women than men) who would play for team US even though they did not like it and would prefer something else. Social pressure and a lack of other options pushed them into playing on a team they didn’t want. A few of these dissatisfied women found support and backing for a new path in life. To gain social acceptance they relabeled team US as team MEN. They then started a huge scheme to convince all women that the goal of team MEN was to control women.

    What these dissatisfied women really wanted was to play for themselves on a new team called team ME, but they knew that it would not be accepted so they labeled the new team, team WOMEN. With backing and support groups they then proceeded to tell everyone that you either support team MEN or you support team WOMEN. The whole time hiding and obscuring that it was really a question of supporting team US vs. team ME.

    Over time more and more women were convinced to support team WOMEN and thus fewer and fewer women were willing to put in the work and sacrifices needed to make team US work. It is/was much easier to play for team ME. See they had been told that playing for team WOMEN/ME allows you to have it all (family, career, house, etc.), and it would take less effort because they would no longer be held down by team MEN. Women started leaving the playing field because the grass was greener somewhere else.

    After many years of women leaving the field to play for team WOMEN/ME, the men started to notice. Some started to respond by getting mad and saying “if you will not come play with us men, we are going to take our ball home so no one can play”. Men were going to show them a thing or two. Failing to realize that women left the field first so walking off the field wouldn’t show anyone, except those still playing on team US.

    Some of the men decided to make a new team as they left the field and they called it team ME-N (pronounced me dash N). These men started to tell others about this awesome new team and as they talked they figured out better and better ways to get back at women, never figuring out that those women had already moved on.

    Leaving the field and joining the new ME-N team gave the people/entities who backed team WOMEN/Me power over these men. A power they did not have until after men started responding. First women fell victim to these groups and now men are doing the same.

    Today women can leave the field and join team ME and men can leave the field and join team ME-N. Neither gender is focused on working together leaving fewer and fewer players for team US. To try and bring men or women back together on team US is mostly a fool’s errand, but the best way to do it is by going out and teaching them the lies and inviting them back.

    Tarn go ahead and delete my two post previous to this one. I basically got it to sound the way I wanted it.

    Thoughts?

  159. goFigure, it makes a lot of sense.

    I know you’ll be frustrated with me asking this, and I hope I am anticipating what your answer will be, but…

    At what point were women truly going for team ME? Was it during women’s suffrage (early 1900s)? Was it during the 50s? 60s? 70s?

    Some Red Pill guys would go back to the 1900s or before. I know some of them think that things all went downhill when women were given the right to vote. Needless to say, I wouldn’t go back that far. Nor would I go back to a time when women were discouraged from getting a higher education and/or pursuing a career if that was their dream.

    In my opinion, it was when women were pressured or made to feel ashamed of pursuing family and made to feel like they had made an inferior choice, were encouraged to ride the cock carousel (made to feel ashamed if they didn’t), and were told to blame men for everything. I’m not sure exactly what year that really took hold.

  160. I should clarify that one statement: I don’t think things went downhill when women were allowed to pursue a higher education and career if that was their dream.

  161. goFigure –

    that is very insightful, clever, and full of truth.

    will probably have more thoughts as i mull it over more.

  162. “In my opinion, it was when women were pressured or made to feel ashamed of pursuing family and made to feel like they had made an inferior choice, were encouraged to ride the cock carousel (made to feel ashamed if they didn’t), and were told to blame men for everything. I’m not sure exactly what year that really took hold.”

    I agree that’s when “team ME” became most obvious but what led to this paradigm? It didn’t just start out of nothing. There were stepping stones. Politics and legislation led to social programs that provided perverse incentives. None of it was founded on bad intentions (at least not by the majority of people who supported them, I have no doubt the smarter and more influential people knew where the perverse incentives would lead), there were cascading consequences. Who supports that legislation? It’s pretty clear to me the world would look very different if women didn’t have the vote.
    These things are all connected.
    There’s a big picture and a little picture. Little picture, on an individual level, individuals want things. We’re all on “team me” to a certain degree. I’d argue we’re all on team me in every respect, but I know most people don’t view things as I do. It’s social conditioning and rules/incentives that condition people into supporting “team us” over team me.

    And much like “there are no atheists in foxholes”, no one is on team me when they’re living on the pointy edge of survival. Human survival depends on interdependence. During prosperity we lose touch with that fact so much of our problems today are a by product of our own prosperity.

  163. Liz –
    “Human survival depends on interdependence. During prosperity we lose touch with that fact so much of our problems today are a by product of our own prosperity.”

    i’ve thought this many times but haven’t found a way to articulate it yet. if women did not have the freedom to be so independent, if they needed to need others to survive, i think the paradigm would be very different.

  164. and i agree – we are all inherently selfish to a point – some more than others. team ME is an elusive happy place. we think it will make us happy, but it just makes us alone.

  165. “i’ve thought this many times but haven’t found a way to articulate it yet. if women did not have the freedom to be so independent, if they needed to need others to survive, i think the paradigm would be very different.”

    Definitely. I also think the problem applies to society at large, not just women.
    Think, for instance, of the small town and why a lot of people want to move to the cities.

    In the “classical subsistence era” of small towns there might be friction in human interactions between neighbors and family and whatnot, but you pretty much had to put up with them, and so much of the time was spent actually working to survive that overriding the urge to confront problems…say, “unprudently” wasn’t as difficult.
    Much of the “small town values” were oriented towards this. The web of responsibility, conflict management and resolution, morals, and so forth were geared to a world where you had to be able to rely on your neighbor and families to a great extent, and they you, or the likelihood of disaster went up in a hurry.
    That’s much less the case today. The success we’ve had in improving life, in getting ourselves away from the pointy end of survival, has meant that other methods of coping with human friction have become ascendant.

    and i agree – we are all inherently selfish to a point – some more than others. team ME is an elusive happy place. we think it will make us happy, but it just makes us alone.

    And this is why I think team me IS team we. That’s how I operate. I recognize what makes me most happy…we’re programmed to thrive when we help one another and nurture our families.

  166. Just blabbing more because…I procrastinate. 🙂
    Back to the INTJ and stuff, I think INTJs are very well matched with the more sensitive folk (like Tarn’s guy and mine).
    Yesterday he was in the shower when I walked into the bathroom, and he said, “I made something for you”. I asked if it was a poop (since we were in the bathroom). LOL
    He said, no and “come here”. I walked over to the shower and he’d drawn a little picture of a choo choo train with a heart over it (he calls me his little choo choo of love).
    It was adorable.
    AND the sphere would go GAG. LOL! That’s not one I’m going to share out there.
    😀

  167. Sue,
    At what point were women truly going for team ME? Was it during women’s suffrage (early 1900s)? Was it during the 50s? 60s? 70s?

    It is when the powers that be began backing it, publishing books, movies and changing more and more laws. Approximately starting in the 1960 with the rise of feminists. When team US/family was relabeled team MEN/patriarchy. My analogy is vague; so I suppose you can fit your own timeline on it.

    Ame,
    that is very insightful, clever, and full of truth.
    Thank you. I enjoyed the idea, I’m glad you did too.

    Liz, great insights in general. Here are a couple things I would like to comment on:
    We’re all on “team me” to a certain degree. I’d argue we’re all on team me in every respect……. It’s social conditioning and rules/incentives that condition people into supporting “team us” over team me.

    I don’t disagree, that is why I made it a point to say that both men and women made sacrifices for team US to work, but without team US there is no future.

    He said, no and “come here”. I walked over to the shower and he’d drawn a little picture of a choo choo train with a heart over it (he calls me his little choo choo of love).

    I’m INTJ and this is the kind of thing I will do for my wife. So you might be experiencing a man/ wife thing rather then INTJ/ emotional spouse thing. I agree with you about sharing it on a RP place.

    .

    So recent conversations have talked about how women can never be RP. Based on my little story I think this is probably correct. You can get women on team US, but you will never really get them onto team ME-N. Would you ladies agree?

  168. “I’m INTJ and this is the kind of thing I will do for my wife. So you might be experiencing a man/ wife thing rather then INTJ/ emotional spouse thing.”

    Maybe so. But my dad wasn’t like that, and I’m more like him.
    Except he was a man of few words obviously we differ there. 🙂
    (Dad put the “stow it” in stoic)

    Agreed, goFigure.

  169. OK, Tarn, Liz, etc;
    The deti, who is a minor deity in the manosphere just said this over at spawnys:
    These women flirted/pursued me because they are lonely, they wanted attention and validation, they wanted to feel desired and loved, and they wanted affirmation that they still can get attention from men. In other words, they want to feel like young women again. They want to experience the feeling of sexual power again. They want to remember what it was like just to show up somewhere and have men falling all over themselves for a chance to get with them.

    I have spent a lot of time around women, talking to them, listening to them etc. I think I get them pretty well most of the time. Heck, sometime I understand my wife better than she understands herself and she has been a women for 38 years. Let me just say that I have never heard any women anywhere say or express this kind of crap. Do I think that there are women like this out there? you bet, but it sure is not the majority.

    The only part of this entire statement that he got right was they wanted to feel desired and loved. You want to know who else needs (yes, I said need not want) to feel needed; 99.99% of all humans that have ever graced this planet, including the men. In fact that is one of the great things about the manosphere; it helps men feel needed.

    Sorry; when so called leaders are so far off I can get really worked up. It is a good thing I wasn’t involved in a conversation with him cause things could of gotten ugly.

    hahaha. I guess I just showed you about my behavior that I was trying to explain earlier.

  170. I forgot the mention most young/middle/old women never feel sexual power. Nor do they experience men falling over themselves just because the girl shows up. Most young ladies would just like to get asked out once in a blue moon by a decent guy. This is why douche bags get all kinds of women into bed…… they ask, nobody else is doing it.

  171. Liz & Gofigure,

    I’m trying to imagine me or mine doing something like that, but I don’t think either of us would. It’s a bit too cutesy for our combined tastes…or maybe it’s that we are friends, and we’d make fun of the other for doing it. Lol.

  172. I forgot to mention most young/middle/old women never feel sexual power. Nor do they experience men falling over themselves just because the girl shows up.

    This is correct. As I have tried to explain numerous times at Spawny’s, most of us who are vaginally endowed aren’t beating boys off with a stick, even in high school when we are supposedly at our peak SMP rating. The ones who are, are the ones you’d expect to be; the cheerleaders, the models, the popular groups, the jock girlfriends. In other words, the ‘sphere is guilty of the apex fallacy just as much as feminists are. I care about the people over at Spawny’s, but when some of them start talking about the supposed incredible sexual power that females knowingly wield over the boys/men in their lives, I have no personal experience to back this claim up. The idea of having such amounts of power at age 17, 19, or even now at 32 is mind boggling. Whether that is because I didn’t act/dress like a girl, or had mostly male friends, or because I was/am a nerd, or because I know I’m female in body but have a male gender identity…. do not know. Maybe it’s a combination thereof.

    I had 1 female friend and 4 very close male friends, and about 6 other male friends in high school. Though I was attracted to a handful of them, they never asked me out, and I never asked them out because of the shit going on in my home life that was fucking up my mind. I did date 2 semi-popular guys…but that lasted a whopping total of 8-10 days each time, since it became blatantly obvious that the sole reason they were dating me is because they thought I had 0 self-esteem and I’d throw myself on their cocks in gratitude for the right to be seen on their arm at school. Boy, please. I dropped them both like a sack of fish heads before even kissing them once. So yes, I agree that the reason more assholes get women is generally because they ask first.

    Now, what I will also say is that despite this apex fallacy regarding female power, I’ll admit that our society is fucked up royally, and those women that *do* know about and use their power are being given a system that will do whatever it can for them while destroying men at their say so. This is unfair, wrong, and misandric, and is why I recommend MGTOW to most guys.

  173. I agree about the reverse apex fallacy (and that was a good description for it).
    That said, I do know quite a few women like that. Single moms (and a few married ones, right before they became single again) around where I live are almost ALL like that.

    “I’m trying to imagine me or mine doing something like that, but I don’t think either of us would. It’s a bit too cutesy for our combined tastes…or maybe it’s that we are friends, and we’d make fun of the other for doing it. Lol.”

    Yeah, I don’t think I’d be doing people in the sphere any favors with such anecdotes.
    But we interact like this a lot (like children, basically). 🙂

  174. I’ll also add for clarity, no woman is going to admit to being this way. They may not understand this about themselves.
    But it is pretty obvious to me that they are trying to relive their golden days by their behavior.
    If you go to bars/clubs/parties and so forth you will see them acting in this way. If you don’t, you probably don’t know this about them. Anyone who is introverted (or hangs mostly or only with an introverted crowd of people) aren’t likely to experience watching these types in action.

  175. Clarification on the “acting like children together” bit…
    No baby talk though. That would be nauseating and grating.
    The “dynamic” requires context (and knowing each other well). 🙂

  176. I think it’s often hard for very introspective, introverted people to understand. Everyone tends to project their own motivations on to others. For example, I don’t understand the “selfie”/ social media generation at all. I can’t imagine taking pictures of myself and passing them aroudn to strangers for “likes” and validation. But I cannot deny that there are MILLIONS of people who do this (and the majority are women and girls).
    Even in Iran:

    Now, would any girl or woman who does this ADMIT that they want (intra-sexual competition) validation? Probably damn few are that self aware. But it’s obvious. What other reason could there possibly be? Again, MILLIONS. Girls who DON’T do this now are pretty rare…and pretty girls who don’t, I’d bet, are uber rare.

  177. Just another thought now that I’ve gone for a run. It might be helpful to look at it from the perspective of “power”. A woman’s beauty is her power. We all know this instinctively….that’s why all of the heroic female figures look beautiful in paintings and sculptures rather than what they probably actually looked like. That’s why even “warrior” heroines have to be beautiful as well as smart, strong, brave and so forth. An ugly warrior woman would lose her power and the audience would be more likely to reject her (it’s true of men too they want to see beautiful women, everyone does). When a woman’s looks start to decline she loses that power and she instinctively knows that, too. Even the introvert knows it. Beauty has value for women, so when they lose it, yeah, they are losing something of value to them. For some women (usually the most beautiful) their beauty actually defines them.
    And a lot of them do go cray when that happens (although they can’t put the one and the other together).
    Losing beauty, for a woman is like a man losing some attribute that is very valuable to him. It’s kind of like the hanger-on who still wants to talk all the time about being a fighter pilot after he has retired.

  178. Liz,
    That said, I do know quite a few women like that. Single moms (and a few married ones, right before they became single again) around where I live are almost ALL like that.

    I will admit that I do not know what happens in the minds of women at the mid-life crises stage. They have a reputation for being easy, but my opinion will remain that they are looking for a place to be needed until someone can show me good evidence for something else. I guess, I could buy into the let loose and live life with no responsibilities idea. In which case they are just looking to get their jollies off and they are willing to use men as much as men want to use them. Maybe that is what Liz is seeing.

    Ok liz how do you in-bed a picture? I have been trying to do that for a while now. That is a nice looking Iranian you found.
    Today young people share selfies and do the rest of that stuff simply because they have never known anything else. How else would they behave. Older people are doing it because they never really leave the high school mindset of trying to impress each other. JMO.

    But we interact like this a lot (like children, basically).
    It is usually called acting like the honeymoon stage. Few couples keep this past the first 2 or so years of their relationship. Very few relationships are good enough to keep it alive. Couples who don’t have this make fun of it but once in a while you will catch a comment about couples that act like they are truly in love even after ______ yrs. This comment is said with some wistfulness.

    I can totally agree with the apex fallacy, thanks for pointing it out ladies.

    Tarn;
    I was wondering why you don’t comment over at Spawny’s, GoFigure. Is it because of some of the regulars?
    I never went to Spawny’s until a few days ago when horseman said he double posted over there. So I went to see what was said. I have visited it a couple of times now. As to why I do not post over there:
    1. Limited time: at this point I’m not looking for another blog to follow or involve myself in.
    2. I don’t think my voice is really needed or would add much value to the members there. No need to stir up trouble. “Or you could say it because of the regulars”.
    3. I’m not sure how much more I will learn around these parts. I have realized that I’m currently playing for team US (though I totally get team ME-N) and don’t feel like beating my head against the wall of team ME-N. (where is the right emoji on my computer).
    4. I’m thinking it is time for me to turn to other things of interest and just quietly walk away. I’m not sure when I will do this, but I think it will be soon.

    I referenced Deti’s comment here because I guessed that you guys would understand what I had to say. And to let you know that I think a leader (like Deti) should be held to a higher standard then regulars Joe’s.

    Anyways, Tarn, you have very graciously let me blow up your blog with questions and comments. You have given me an excellent sounding board to voice my ideas and get feedback. You have helped me clear up questions and misunderstanding. You have shown great character in every way.

    So, let me say; Thank you, very much and keep being you!

  179. “Ok liz how do you in-bed a picture? I have been trying to do that for a while now. That is a nice looking Iranian you found.”

    I just posted a link to an image, and it did it itself. 🙂

    And YES….isn’t she beautiful? It really is power. Even I like looking at a beautiful woman and I’m not bi like Tarn. @:-P

  180. Liz brings up a good point about women’s beauty, and while I haven’t read the latest posts on RPG, I think some over there are bringing up good things too.

    Many women actually aren’t that beautiful, or are at least not treated like they are. They may be cute or attractive, but maybe they don’t dress in a flattering way, or are too fat or too thin. (At least during their formative years.) This will cause them to be near-invisible to men.

    Let’s face it, some people can be very cruel about the defects (even small ones) in a woman’s appearance. At some point, it doesn’t really matter if they are attractive or not — in their own minds, they are not. Even if they grow past their ugly duckling stage, part of them will never get over the feelings of insecurity.

  181. And YES….isn’t she beautiful? It really is power. Even I like looking at a beautiful woman….

    I will just say that my own opinion is that he most physically attractive people are not good for anything else. You look, then you move on.

    I think that always being the focus of so much attention warps their personalities/ or their life to the point they just become someone else…….. I am not sure what it is. I just know that I don’t have much use for them.

    Sue, I agree that in today’s society it is near impossible for a women to have a positive self image.

  182. goFigure, I agree.

    My mother is a very attractive woman, but had an ugly duckling phase growing up, so she never let her beauty go to her head. She raised me and my siblings to not focus too much over our looks, because she had seen some of her beautiful friends go off the rails when their beauty started to fade. I’m very grateful for that upbringing.

    I’m fortunate that I don’t usually associate with women who are vain or too conscious of their beauty. The women from my church are not encouraged to vanity, that’s for sure. With other people I associate with, we’re all widget-makers and so we care more about our widgets. 🙂 I am friends with some very beautiful widget-makers, but they don’t seem too concerned with their looks, nor do they view themselves superior to everyone else due to their beauty. We all are judged by how well we make widgets! 😀

  183. goFigure –
    “4. I’m thinking it is time for me to turn to other things of interest and just quietly walk away. I’m not sure when I will do this, but I think it will be soon.”

    while there is a season for everything, and i totally understand … you will be missed 🙂

    =======

    yes! Tarn is totally awesome 🙂

  184. Sue,
    With the amount of time and effort you guys put into widgets making, they must be the greatest most fascinating widgets ever. Or widgets are just another name for kidlets. 🙂

  185. Yes, I’m very very curious what sorts of widgets Sue likes to create.
    But she wants to remain mysterious. @:-P
    I’m guessing…fly fishing flies!

  186. Liz, I was just rereading your comments and wanted to let you know that I mostly agree with everything you type. I’m just not nearly as skilled and eloquent at expressing my thoughts as you.

  187. LOL! My widgets are creative in nature, which I guess explains why my fellow widget-makers and I are so passionate about them! Creative work brings that out in many people. 🙂

    Needless to say, God and family come first, because without those, life loses its most important meaning and much of its joy. But, I would say that being passionate and excited about what you do is a blessing, and an ideal. Wouldn’t it be great if everyone felt that way about what they did for a living?

    I look forward to many years of fulfilling widget-making. I can’t say the same for women who are relying on their looks to give them validation. Widget-making (or other accomplishments that come from within) don’t fade over the years. That’s one of the important lessons my mother taught me. 🙂

  188. You did an inbed!
    🙂
    I love Opus. That’s a blast from the past!
    Thankyou for your kind words, goFigure.

  189. Just to add, I think you express your thoughts very well.
    I really hope you stick around (but I understand if you don’t)

  190. This widget thing really intrigues me…whatever could it be?
    This is maddening!
    I feel a bit like this pooch:

  191. Sue,
    I see you on the phone over there on the right. And you thought you could hide your widget making from us. lol 🙂

  192. LOL! When I say it’s creative, that could mean a lot of things. Maybe I play the violin in an orchestra. (I don’t. 🙂 ) But you can imagine that someone who grew up loving the violin is going to look forward to playing the violin throughout their life, and if they get paid for it, all the better. 🙂

  193. goFigure at 5:57 PM

    if you will not come play with us men, we are going to take our ball home so no one can play”. Men were going to show them a thing or two.

    For me, MGTOW has nothing to do with “showing them a thing or two”. MGTOW is a way of living. The reason MGTOW are not interested in relationships with women is that, as a matter of individual decision, women are not worth the risk. This is not making a statement to the world. It’s personal.

    I’m not interested in “showing them”, except when I think it might help other men, or when good women are seriously interested in a relationship with me I’ll tell them I’m a MGHOW.

  194. Cill,
    I consider myself MGTOW as well…… and I don’t think that quote is in reference to MGTOW, but each reader can interpret it how they like.

    If you read in the manosphere you will see a lot of: showing women this, women get the consequences of that, don’t do this for women, don’t play that women’s game…….. a lot of getting back at women.

    There is definitely other topics and suggestions in the manosphere as well.

  195. Hey all,

    Let me just quickly say thank you to everyone who said I’m a good person. I really do try to be such, and I appreciate it when someone acknowledges my personality/achievements. 😀

    Sorry I’ve been busy lately…

  196. Very satisfying. I was getting too comfortable at my last job, since I’d been there for 11 years and was a manager for 8 of those. It’s great to have new challenges and things to learn again. The product and retail knowledge is all there, of course, but now I’m getting to know about account management, warehouse stocking, the different software, etc.

    It’s sad that the commute means 4 hours in the car every Mon-Fri, but hey…it’s not a difficult drive. Just hop onto 287 and I’m good to go!

  197. …in today’s society it is near impossible for a woman to have a positive self image.

    I think this is probably true if said woman only compares herself to the models on magazine covers or professional actresses in porn, who are either very airbrushed or have a personal trainer + very strict diet regimen. The majority of women don’t/can’t look like that, because at least a portion of it isn’t real. Once you remove the cosmetics (both physical and computer generated) even celebrities we consider to be highly attractive become more normal. Same for men, who will never be an Adonis with a perfectly sculpted body, hair, height, chin, shoulders, etc.

    When one remembers that neither Barbie nor He-Man are real people, having a positive self image can be easily attained and maintained by simply eating well, doing moderate exercise, and staying away from negative/harmful behaviors like drug use, over drinking, smoking, staying up til all hours, having good hygiene, and so on.

    Nobody can be perfect, but a lot of people could be healthy and thus more realistically attractive.

  198. You are a great person, Tarn! 🙂
    4 hour commute sounds brutal. Is there no way to move a bit closer?
    I hope you listen to audiobooks. That’s how Mike passes the time on his commutes, and he learns a lot on the way.
    If you have any interest in learning a language, there’s a great language series by
    Michel Thomas
    http://www.amazon.com/Michel-Thomas/e/B002PXPMNK/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_9?qid=1463270399&sr=8-9
    I think he does French, Italian, Spanish, and German
    This guy is great!

  199. As are you, Liz. 🙂

    Ohhhh, thank you! I’ve been looking to learn more German. This sounds like a great way to do it.

    Re: commute time
    I’m currently searching for an apartment in between my current abode and new job. It’s just slower going than I’d like, since almost all of them only give tours between 9-5, when I’m already at work.

  200. It all boils down to lack or refusal to understand the pain. If you are abused it messes you up. I have experienced something like this. When I was younger I had not the best relationship with my father. It seemed to me every time I did not do or be like he wanted me to be I was beaten and yelled at. He was calling me all kinds of names. It really traumatised me. And I felt especially in last 2 years lots of anger. It driven me to a dark place😢. And screwed my life up. Fortunately I pulled back, and I realized for all my father’s faults I love him and at the end without him working hard, I would not be where I would be. And ultimately in spite of everything’s, he was not all that bad, and a lot things were partly my fault. My love and compassion has overcome anger and hate. And I forgave him. Fortunatlely I had people who listened to my pain and helped me heal. The problem is men have nowhere to turn to. Society does not listen to them. If we want to change situation, we must be kind, considerate, and tolerant. If men do not want to marry after bad divorse, we must respect their choices, and instead of mockery be kind to them. I read about these horror stories. And I seen few in my life. I understand why such men reluctant to engage in these relationships. It is all about fear. Fear of something like this happening again, and difficulty of trust. Years ago I got nearly mauled to death by a big pitbull. I escaped in one peace. I grateful to the owner for restraining the dog. But I saw how he was struggling. I came dangerously close being attacked. Within inches of my face. Had the dog attacked me I will not be here. Till this day I avoid big dogs. Wherever I seebig dog, I cross the street. It is lack of undertanding and lack of self reflection.

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