My Thoughts On The MGTOW Movement

Okay, this is probably going to be a very controversial post. I may get harsh comments or emails from various people who believe my view on this utterly wrong and possibly even sexist. Some readers may even wonder why I’d ever discuss such a loaded topic. But this is my blog, and as such is full of my beliefs already…might as well air this one out, too. Here goes, my opinion on the idea of Men Going Their Own Way:

I’m perfectly fine with it.

No, honestly. I am.
If a man feels that various traditions that are considered the norm in society (marriage, dating, having children, etc) can, and in some cases do, lead to frivolous divorce, lack of equal visitation/custody of children, strict gender roles, and general stress or unhappiness, then who am I to tell him he is wrong? Who is anyone? No one has the right to a relationship, after all. Of course, defining your personal value on whether or not you have a relationship is a bad idea in the first place, just like trying to define oneself by virginity/lack thereof.

I have actually known women who have lied about taking birth control to their partners. I have known women who were told by their divorce lawyers that all they had to do to guarantee 100% custody was say their husband/boyfriend was abusive. I have known women who have bluntly stated that they believe they are entitled to everything a man makes once they are in a relationship…but any money she makes belongs soley to her. Then of course there’s the girls I knew in high school and college, the ones that cried when their boyfriends so much as glanced at another female…insisted that he pay for every single outing, even if she made more than him…and would brag in the locker room about how they held off on any sex/intimacy until the guy in question bought the proper amount of jewelry to “prove his affection”.

I know not all women act this way. A good number, including me (technically) have our heads screwed on the right way and would never dream of treating the men in our lives in such a horrible manner. A number of my readers are women who, like myself, take pride in being an equal rather than acting like some prize to be won over.

The truly upsetting thing, however, is this: The vast majority of the manipulators and gold-diggers I mentioned above were incredibly adept at acting as though they were not like that…at least at first. Yes, some of these women eventually became known as the type who’d basically have sex only with guys who were loaded, but there were many that I knew throughout high school that simply went from boy to boy, and never got a poor reputation.

This is the danger that, in it’s purest form, the MGTOW mindset is meant to protect against…the women (no matter how few or numerous they are) who treat men as resources to be milked, rather than fellow human beings to share companionship with on balanced terms. I truly cannot fault anyone for simply saying that the single life* is better than throwing one’s heart into relationship after relationship, only to be burned each time. Neither can I condemn** those who have decided before even trying their hand at dating that marriage and long-term relationships were not for them.

After all, I am happily single with no desire for marriage, children, or anything more committed than the FwB relationship I’ve had for the last 7 or so years. It would be incredibly hypocritical of me to speak poorly of men who choose the same lifestyle as me, even if we have different reasons behind our decisions. Both men and women can get more joy out of singlehood than marriages or serial dating, especially if they’be given it much thought and and after careful introspection. If someone wants to truly go their own way, treasure their freedom, and live life on their terms…more power to them.

What about you, dear reader? What is your opinion on the MGTOW movement?

Clarifications
*Yes, I’m aware that some mgtows are married, but they are by and far the minority. My post deals with the majority, who forsake relations with women to varying degrees.

**I don’t condemn men who believe the deck is stacked against them and thus refuse to date, marry, have children, or allow society to place value/lack thereof on them in accordance with how well they can support a woman.  I applaud their ability to make a difficult choice and stick to their guns. However, I do condemn needless misogynistic rantings, or blaming an entire sex for the way society is. I don’t condone it from feminists, and I don’t condone it from MRAs/MGTOWs. People are individuals, not some fantastical hivemind of ideologies.

Edited 4/24/14 To Add
Attention MGTOWs I currently have a survey asking for your input here. https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/mgtow-survey/

Edited 2/20/14 To Add
An email from a (presumed) reader was in my inbox today, basically saying that I had no right having an opinion on the MGTOW movement as it is all about men “not giving a damn what women think of them”. My response is this;

While a substantial part of MGTOW is the fact that a man has inherent value by himself, rather than what he could potentially provide to a family/wife/girlfriend…and yes, therefore not needing to give a damn about how society or individual women feel about this…that does not mean it’s wrong or bad for someone who is not technically a MGTOW to have an opinion on it. MRAs, PUAs, feminists, women, men, young adults and elderly citizens can (and do) have opinions on a multitude of topics. Though I cannot claim to truly be a MGTOW due to my physical sex, I am fully capable of having an opinion on said movement. It is that I also believe in living life for oneself, striving to become a better, more actualized man, not caring that society thinks I should settle down/marry/have children, and just generally agreeing that marriage as it currently stands is a piss poor arrangement.

I understand that some may not agree with my opinion, or the fact that I have one. But I will not apologize for having it, nor will I stop supporting men who have deemed this their way of life.

Related Posts About Staying Single

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/the-cheese-stands-alone/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/alone-doesnt-always-mean-lonely/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/09/06/why-going-your-own-way-isnt-a-bad-idea/

https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/perks-of-singlehood/

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61 thoughts on “My Thoughts On The MGTOW Movement

  1. Like++ Had I heard of MGTOW in my 20’s I would have gone that way. I’ve straddled a difficult fence in feeling much as that movement does yet still participating in the societal relationship games that were initially designed to indoctrinate children to biblical marriage. The change in society and its rules has lead to a lot of abuse by all sides with little clear understanding of the dynamics and too much confirmation bias. I think that the MRA/MGTOW movements are helping to clarify the dynamics. I claim the title ‘equalist’ and I’ll be the first to admit that equality, real equality, will cause a lot of pains initially… but then again, aren’t we already in pain?

  2. Hi atheistlife. Thanks for commenting.

    Even if you didn’t hear of MGTOWs, why didn’t you go your own way just because you wanted to? I decided to stay single when I was 16…what held you back (if anything)?

    “Societal relationship games”…I like the terminology there. I’ve never had to navigate those waters myself, thankfully, but I’ve seen much of it and it still makes little to no sense to me.

    I identify as egalitarian/humanist as well. Pleased to see I’m in good company!

    Real equality WILL happen, I’m confident of this. But you’re right…it’s painful to those who have been hurt in the process, and the few who want traditional roles to remain in place for everyone.

  3. When I was 16 I was still one of YHWH’s evangelical fundamentalist warriors… the enlightenment of MGTOW would have done me no good until unshakling myself from religion. By then it was all a bit confusing and going with the flow was the easiest route. I chose that seeming easy route because I did not have the arguments against it.

    My beliefs on relationships would be at home in a BDSM society as well as other styles. This made the endeavor even more confusing – holding self evident belief but surrounded by a sea of opposition and confusion. People truly wanting one thing but acting like it was not what they wanted. some calling their deepest desires perversion and so on. Society has change dramatically since I was 16, some for the better but generally just exchanging one problem for another.

    I cannot quantify it but those who strove for equality did as much harm as good in my view, leaving us with 50 years of turmoil and no real progress on the core issues – the ones that nobody really wants to talk about because it means they have to justify their beliefs in a logical and reasoned way and to finally admit that we’re different at our core understanding of pleasure and pain and our most basic and intimate desires. If we could do that in the public sphere it would destory the psychiatric industry.

    Until we get real change I remain a lone wolf equalist… so it seems.

  4. Fair enough. I chose to follow Wicca and become vegetarian when I was 13…I was lucky enough to have a mother who was open to all religious paths. By that age, I’d attended a Lutheran church, a Baptist church, a Jehovah Witness hall, a reformed Jewish temple, an open Buddhist monastery, a “born again” church, and Catholic services. I also had friends who were Hindu, Muslim, and atheist…Thus it was a simple thing for me to at least compare and contrast the basics of each belief system and make an educated decision on which one was right for me.

    I enjoy various forms of BDSM too, from light bondage and “punishment” to in-depth roleplay. However, it’s not anything I’d base an actual relationship on…it’s a fun and tension-releasing game, nothing more. I agree that people should accept their desires and try them out in a safe and consensual setting though…what’s to be gained (other than massive loads of guilt and frustration) from denying something like sexual play? So long as everyone is of age and takes their physical/mental health seriously…what’s the issue?

    If being a lone wolf works for you, I see no reason to change.

  5. It is not merely on this level that I remain a seeming lone wolf. I’ve noticed that more people are open to understanding in recent years. For the longest time I could find no one else. I remember Madeline Murray OHare being demonized…. I could find no others to talk with about it. So it has been for relationships and the cutting edge of change is always hit or miss. I’ve been at the edge of a lot of things… it’s like surfing a 80 foot wave, it’s exciting once maybe twice… it gets to be a bit much though.

  6. Yeah, certain parts of America are getting more open and willing to talk instead of simply wave away differences of opinion. I take heart from this. Perhaps it means that one day soon, minority types will be more accepted in our society.

    As an aside;
    Obviously I’ve been in the religion side of culture, but I sometimes wonder how much I’m missing out on (in terms of life experience) by not even dipping a toe in the dating pool. It’s not even like I *want* to…I’m 100% content with my FwB and singlehood, and I honestly think I’d suck at dating because I don’t do the idiotic games that I see/hear about. But I know I could make a bunch of other men happy, listen to their problems, give them validation, maybe even one day be able to help them break a pattern of Incel…Am I being selfish by NOT dating, given that I enjoy helping people?

  7. I would say that you are perfect where you are if it makes you happy… nothing prevents us from having more than one FwB. Happiness is not achieved in others by helping them, but sharing and experiencing together is a completely different story

  8. Thanks. I have a post forming in my mind about this. Now all I need is more time!

    My break is over now, so I’ll bid you adieu til later. Have a good rest of your day, atheistlife.

  9. Judging by what you write here…how can I put it? I don’t think that you have a future in facism. You have too much to learn and no apparent inate gift for it.

    Sorry Tarn, but sometimes brutal honesty is the best policy.

  10. Superb post. No rational person could take offence to this. Just as there are exploitative men, so are there exploitative women.

    This truth is anathema to ideological feminists. Come to think of it, so is any truth when it comes to gender issues.

  11. Some people are naturally bad at communicating emotionally, especially bad at forming emotional rapport, in other words empathizing or picking up emotional contagion. It’s an important skill, vital to the success of an intimate relationship. Would you force a tone-deaf person into a music industry-related job? If not, then what is the point of shaming someone like this case into a relationship?

  12. Nice. I have known women of whom you have mentioned, especially the ones that say “my money is my money, your’s is mine too”. In fact that is a sort of prerequisite nowadays in their resumes in the matrimonial sites. A sad state of affairs. And I also know quite some men who are following this, my friends in fact, and are happy so far. What comes next in their lives is any ones guess, but atleast they know what they want as is the case with some women I know too.

  13. You don’t have to hate women to think that the odds of finding someone worth marrying are so poor as to make it a irrational way to exhaust your limited resources of time, effort and money. In fact, that works for both sexes. The risks of divorce and the rate of divorce make the whole marriage thing a dubious prospect for men anyway. 50% divorce rate = Russian Roulette with 3 chambers loaded, does that sound like a fun game to you? MGTOW isn’t fundamentally about women at all, it’s about having the best life you can. What discomforts society about that way of life is that: * it removes men/personal provider pack mules from the marriage market (where did all the good men go?) * it reduces their consumption of goods (companies want men buying stuff too) * it reduces their commitment to working (to be taxed). If those three issues didn’t affect society, society wouldn’t give a crap about MGTOWs, just as they don’t give a crap about men in general. Tarn, your reaction is commendable and where it comes from even more so. That men are people too and have the right to live as they wish. Well said.

  14. “Married men and those who are single yet continue to sleep around are not IMHO MGTOW.”

    I think that everyone gets to define Their Own Way, but I have to admit that being married and defining yourself as MGTOW is a little bit of a stretch in my humble opinion. Maybe if you’re in the process of getting a divorce…a statement of intent.

    Single man still sleeping around? Why not an MGTOW (by their own definition)? If they define the rules of their engagement with society/women, that could be MGTOW. I don’t see a requirement to live a monkish life, but if you choose that chasing women is your raison d’etre then PUA seems a better fit.

    I think that in its infancy MGTOW did have a central definition of what the label meant. The no-maam blogSpot blog describes it (no linky here, but bing finds it just fine). Nowadays I think that the label has been applied to any man living a non-gynocentric lifestyle. Another acronym for this is MOO – Man Opting Out.

    Every one should consider whether the ready-made pre-fitted life styles authorised by society are suitable for them, or those roles demanded by any other movement. Social contracts were broken 50 years ago (no more forced miserable stay at home moms, no more forced miserable provider pack mule males). This is a great thing.

    MGTOW seems to be the label being applied to the males who are only now really doing what women (first wave feminists (? my casual opinion of the right label, no offence intended)) did back then; telling traditional society to go **** itself. It’s about time too.

  15. @Poet

    I agree that married men calling themselves mgtows is a bit odd, but like Spawny I am more open minded about those who still have one-night stands or very casual “girlfriends”. After all, my favorite mgtow (who I know identifies as such) is M3, and he’s had a lady for a few months now.

  16. @Navigator

    Thank you, I tried to write it as openly as possible, while still getting the full message across. I didn’t want to come down on either sex as a whole since I value individualism so much…Our current situation is something that we ALL have to work on.

  17. @Exfernal

    The link is a bit bad, but I encountered trouble on the actual site too. From what I was able to glean from it, no…I’d certainly say that the person mentioned should never have been shamed into having a relationship.

    Then again, I don’t think *anyone* should be. Now I just need to get my parents/mom in particular to understand that. :/

  18. @KG

    See, you get it though, because you have seen the same type of women I have…Namely, ones who give a bad name to the entire sex. There are, unfortunately, more of them than I’d care to admit. And you’re right, it *is* a sad state.

  19. @Spawny

    Oh, definitely. I purposefully stayed away from the idea that “MGTOWs = Misogynist” for a reason. Are some of them? Yes, I’d say so. But the majority are just fed up with how things are and reject women…not hate them. It’s like when people say that “Atheists hate god”. Um, nope. They just reject the notion of one.

  20. “Are some of them? Yes”

    Oh yes indeedy, just as there are misandric feminists. No doubt whatsoever.

  21. @Tarn

    Tell that to my mother. She wants grandkids, period. Apparently, her opinion is more important than mine in the matter… well, for her. Typical.

  22. @Exfernal

    My mother is by far the most insistent of all my parental units that I should settle down and have children. This, despite the fact that I’m the oldest of her FOUR children and the ONLY one who doesn’t want kids. I feel your pain…

  23. @ Sophia…

    The idea behind the MGTOW movement is to avoid losing ones rights by marrying and being financially raped of his children, home and financial resources in a divorce as well as turn their back on women and society. However an individual who claims to be MGTOW yet intentionally puts himself at risk of being financial raped in family court by being forced to pay child support for a child he did not want. By engaging in intimate relationships with women is not only inconsistent with the aims of the MGTOW movement with is playing with fire in my opinion. And those who play with fire end up all to often being burned.

  24. True, but what if the guy thinks ahead and gets a vasectomy, or only hires escorts/sex workers? I’d say that’s pretty safe, especially if they are professionals who have a high reputation for being clean and safe, like at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. I guess I can just understand/sympathize with men who still desire sex and/or intimacy with a woman. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with masturbation IMO…after all, every one of us does it…but I get that some guys (perhaps much younger mgtows) have a need for sex that self-love can’t satisfy.

  25. Ha. Try, as a single guy, to get a vasectomy. In the country I’m in, you have to be married with at least two kids to be eligible. No kidding.

    Not mentioning possible complications (like testicle pain if clamping sperm ducts, or swelling from autoimmune reaction to sperm, if severing sperm ducts).

  26. It is dishonest arguments such as this one put forth by John Hembling on AVfM that prevent me from supporting today’s MHRM:

    “A few standard objections to this are worth noting as well, because although they are common, they are also false.

    “But he should have just kept his pants zipped up. He chose to reproduce when he chose to have sex!

    “Have you heard this one before?

    “This is false, and for those making this argument, it is dishonest. The choice to participate in sex is not the same as the choice to reproduce.”

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/everything-is-wrong-with-mgtow/

    Any time a male chooses to engage in sex with a woman he is assuming the risk that she may become pregnant. Unfortunately birth control from condoms to the pill don’t always work and for one reason or another fail sometimes on purpose. But that is a risk that the a male willingly chooses to take on – no matter how remote the risk – whenever he chooses to engage in sexual intercourse with a female.

    Demanding the right to be just as irresponsible as the average female who sleeps around. Is simply a deal breaker for me as I do not want to have to pay higher taxes to support hordes of children their biological fathers didn’t want yet willingly chose to procreate by spreading their seed around.

    There is no free lunch and if one does not want to pay then one should not play the game.

  27. Awesome post! I was initially turned off to the MGTOW movement because I thought it was pretty sexist to try to avoid all contact with women. But as I’ve come to understand it better, I’ve realised that it’s more about your motives than your actions. It’s not about avoiding women, or work, or anything – it’s about choosing to engage with people and activities because you want to or personally need to, not because society says that you should. I’ve also come to realise that there are many levels of MGTOW – that many men do not avoid women completely or engage in the more extreme forms of ‘opting out’. They just don’t subscribe to outdated cultural narratives about how men should behave in order to be ‘real’ men. Though I have found that some guys misinterpret the purpose of MGTOW: they seem to think that the point of opting out of society is to punish that society and make them see how much they need traditional masculinity, rather than simply to have more agency over their own lives. That I really can’t support, I think it’s both arrogant and punitive and it doesn’t benefit anyone.

    But I completely support the idea of men eschewing traditional male responsibilities, like marriage or working a job they hate just to have enough money to impress women. After all, plenty of people do this without it being an ideological statement, it’s just a personal choice and it’s not really anyone else’s business as long as you don’t hurt others. While it’s a bit of a far-leaning movement for me, I think it’s an important step towards genuine equality. Traditional gender roles come with both restrictions and benefits; we’ve done a decent job of removing many traditional expectations placed on women, but very little to dismantle traditional expectations of men. I really like Warren Farrell’s work on the subject – he basically says that traditional gender roles evolved to ensure the survival of the species and that they’re pretty much dysfunctional today because the species is no longer under threat. We can’t create an ‘updated’ option for women but not have one for men.

  28. “We can’t create an ‘updated’ option for women but not have one for men.” Indeed! Where is the fairness in that? Nowhere that I can tell… I am firmly of the opinion that both sexes should be able to either embrace or reject gender roles as the individual sees fit. If a man/woman wants to live according to traditional roles, hey cool…I’m not for it, but do what makes you happy. If a man/woman finds fulfilment in bucking old roles and doing things they like without regard to how they’d been perceived 70 years ago…that’s how I am, so others probably love it too! I can kind of understand the mgtows who believe they are “punishing” society by not marrying. After all, it’s been forced down so many people’s throats that “ALL women NEED to get married” that removing oneself from the dating/matrimony pool can definitely give a sense of schadenfreude. Unfortunately for the men with this mindset, there are more and more people of both sexes deciding not to wed, just because it *is* a fairly messed up system. I think that rather than the marriage strike portion of MGTOW, the “ghosting” side of it would be felt a LOT more, especially if a significant number of men (and let’s face it, some women separatists) only work under the table or don’t contribute to society in any manner whatsoever. I don’t like taxes any more than the typical citizen, and believe they are misused a good chunk of the time, but they are also needed for social reasons. To be honest though, I’m unsure of how one can completely “go Galt”, other than literally becoming a hermit in the woods. Even if you don’t get a job, don’t pursue higher education, don’t use electricity, forced air, gasoline, etc…you’ll still rely on others for your clothing, housing, and food. Even societies such as the Amish need each other, perhaps moreso than anyone in average civilization. I’d actually love to hear from someone who has taken “going ghost” as far as can be done, though I know that is exceptionally unlikely.

  29. The main thing that “hurts” women, is when you stop buying them things and generally catering to their needs more than you do men’s needs. And you stop giving more weight to a woman’s opinion than you do a man’s. Not just not marrying/dating.

  30. RE: True, but what if the guy thinks ahead and gets a vasectomy, or only hires escorts/sex workers? I’d say that’s pretty safe, especially if they are professionals who have a high reputation for being clean and safe, like at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada.
    ——————————————–

    I have never been nor will I ever be interested in eating someone else’s leftovers! Especially having watched by own father die from an STD. On this issue it is far better to be safe then sorry and I have absolutely no empathy for those men who do and end up getting bit in their hindquarters as a result.

  31. @Master Beta

    I understand where you’re coming from, and acknowledge that you’re speaking about typical “me, me, me” culture/women…but honestly? Not getting special attention/having people buy you random stuff *shouldn’t* be hurtful.

    It’s called growing up. If you’re an adult, don’t expect to be treated like a 10 year old…that’s what jobs are for.

  32. @Poet

    I can understand the wariness of STDs. After all, it’s one of the reasons I’ve only had sex with 1 partner…just safer that way. I guess I’m still confused about the “leftovers” part though. My FwB had 12 partners before he met me, but always used protection and is clean. I’ve never felt like he’s a “leftover” from those other lovers.

    Could just be differences in our upbringing though…I can appreciate your view without subscribing to it. 🙂

  33. Re: Could just be differences in our upbringing though…
    ________________________

    Perhaps…My father was married three times my mother has had nine partners and having both lived and witnessed the emotional damage their lifestyles caused to both myself and my brothers. Along with the trauma and damage caused to our society by piss poor lifestyle choices of my parents generation and those who chose to follow in their footsteps I see absolutely nothing worthwhile in repeating their mistakes.

  34. What’s sad is the fact that our society intentionally changed the rules for females while intentionally requiring men to continue to play by the old rules. And now that an ever increasing number of men are refusing to play the game and won’t pay tribute to their wannabe feminine masters they are pissed.

  35. @Dapoet agree with your last comment. The feminist movement was in totality little more than agency for the neo liberal agenda. Both wanted to reduce the strength of the traditional family in favour of the cult of the individual. The latter and overarching force, merely for more tax payers and consumers. More labour unit = less union power, here in NZ wage ‘equality’ saw the family wage disappear in favour of a lower wage economy (on average) for all. The traditionalist could no longer support an average home on an average wage, instead both parents are now having to work to pay for over inflated house etc and to hell with the neglect of the kids. Family friendly work hours gave way to 24/7 consumerism etc. I also believe that the gender war has been deliberate and is text book divide and rule practised by all empires throughout history. The empire in this case is the financial elite that stand behind the globalised marketplace. Our grass roots conflict, abuse, violences, dysfuntional kids growing into dysfunctional adults is just more employment for the ‘caring’ professionals and our snping at each other takes our gaze from the real harm being done to us and the planet.
    Having been sold the dream of the traditional family etc etc…I have lived across the whole 2nd wave fem movement I can sadly say my life has been text book short end of the stick over marriage, property and my kids (now late 20-mid 30′s). But mgtow has allowed a consolidation of thinking, (having specifically studied gender issues (formal and self) for the last 20 years) and where I had arrived at anyway! No property, live in the bush, not for profit social good low pay job tends to do that anyway…yeah I know surprisingly the often heard ‘no good men out there’ is more ‘no good men that earn more than me’..even though kids are no longer part of age group agenda!
    Some one else mentioned about negative motivations to mgtow…yes there is something in that. No one really cares about how many men my age drop off the planet..but If enough young men follow this path then society may have to have a look at how the devaluation of men, boys and masculinity has contributed to this state. I can guantee that the market place will not accept men enmasse reducing their productivity because they do not have to earn as much to support their own basic needs! And yes I’ll cope to feeling a bit of f…you to how society has ‘evolved’.

  36. Hi there, mountainmax. Thanks for commenting. You bring up a lot of good points. I’m sorry that marriage didn’t work out for you, but it sounds as if MGTOW has been doing well for you.

    “…the marketplace will not accept men en mass reducing their productivity because they do not have to earn as much to support their own basic needs!”

    I wish more people thought this way. Our society is materialistic enough as is. I’ve actually been considering just buying an RV when my college loans are all paid off. Simpler life sounds much more appealing, honestly.

  37. This MGTOW movement is small and its associated its associated red pill ideas which are at this time vigorously suppressed.

    I was thinking of something from the Bible, Exodus 34:7 “keeping steadfast love for thousands,[a] forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.” . The sins of the fathers I am thinking of today is feminism, the destruction of family and demonetization of all things male.

    I see these trends: The demonetization of being competitive in grade schools, a disappearing Protestant work ethic, a transfer of wealth and property to the least productive, a slowing of scientific progress and mindless consumerism taken to extremes that is covetousness to the point of bankruptcy.

    All this and its consequences will take several generations to play out fully.

    I was thinking of Marx, a German, and the communist manifesto written in 1848. At that time this whole idea had had little or no impact on the widespread and varied revolutionary movements of the mid-19th century Europe. Who could have guessed many whole governments outside of Europe would have attempted to base themselves on this idea and how operationally oppressive these government would be.

    It is really hard tell where MGTOW and associated ideas will lead in the end.

  38. Marriage, for the past 40+ years, amounts to the largest transfer of wealth (from men to women, lawyers, judges and the state) in human history. In 2012 alone, there were 2.4 million divorces?
    Who do you think filed the majority of those divorces? I’ll bet it’s 95% of men paying alimony and child support in those divorces as well. Fools never learn. In the past 40+ years, tens upon tens of millions of men have had to learn all this the hard way.
    I have a great career, my own home and tons of money. Why on earth would I put all that at risk for marriage to a modern woman when there is zero benefit in doing so and the chances of getting raped in family divorce court are so high? And no – sex is not worth the hell that modern marriage can bring to a man’s life. Nothing is worth that hell.
    Feminists told women that marriage was slavery. Feminists told women that men were evil and that the patriarchy (created through gynocentrism and white knights) was evil. Feminists (through massive distortions of history) told women that men had it oh so good back in the day when they actually had it a lot, lot worse than women. Feminists told women they could have careers, their own assets, have kids, not have kids, get married, not get married, etc. Feminists celebrate abortion, divorce, alimony and child support.
    MGTOW are telling men the same thing that feminism told women (that marriage is slavery/indentured servitude/abject hell for men). The difference is that, while feminists lied to women, MGTOW are actually telling the truth to men. Feminists will never acknowledge the hypocrisy and double standards in feminism, hence the nasty, shaming, emasculating comments you see from time to time.
    MGTOW are adapting in a rational way to the destructive force that feminism, marriage and women represent to men in modern life.
    If a man gets married, for the remainder of that marriage, he has no-fault divorce hanging over his head. It could happen after a 1 year, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years or more. Grey Divorce is the fastest growing sector of divorce. This isn’t surprising when you consider that, by checking out after decades, women maximize the transfer of wealth from their soon to be ex-husbands to themselves. Since the baby boomers are retiring in droves, expect the transfer of wealth from men to women to be on a scale previously unheard of for male baby boomers. Expect to see many, many male baby boomers living in poverty and/or committing suicide in the coming decade or two.
    Check out gynocentrism.com. Check out A Voice for Men. Check out mgtow.com. On these sites, you will find some justifiably angry men with justifiably low opinions of women. You will also find a lot of younger men that, thanks to the emergence of MGTOWs, will be spared the hell of modern marriage.

  39. From what I’ve read, about 70% of divorces are initiated by women. There’s no doubt in my mind that some of these are due to actual issues like sexual incompatibility, abuse, amicable differences, etc but I agree with you…a majority of them are frivolous and unnecessary.

    I also have a good career, a nice home, own my car, and should be completely debt free by the end of this year. As it is, I don’t want marriage/kids, but if I was physically male I’d have to be exceptionally careful about falling in love with a woman.

    Thanks for stopping by and giving your opinion and observations. It’s good to here from men about this topic.

  40. I have actually known women who have lied about taking birth control to their partners. I have known women who were told by their divorce lawyers that all they had to do to guarantee 100% custody was say their husband/boyfriend was abusive. I have known women who have bluntly stated that they believe they are entitled to everything a man makes once they are in a relationship…but any money she makes belongs soley to her. Then of course there’s the girls I knew in high school and college, the ones that cried when their boyfriends so much as glanced at another female…insisted that he pay for every single outing, even if she made more than him…and would brag in the locker room about how they held off on any sex/intimacy until the guy in question bought the proper amount of jewelry to “prove his affection”.

    Few women will EVER have this kind of honesty when talking about their own gender.

    Men – what you read above was written BY A WOMAN. Listen to her words.

    My uncle went MGTOW after he was fleeced by a couple of gold-diggers in close succession over 30 years ago before the word MGTOW existed. (Maybe, going “GALT” back then). Now, I am looking at the same scene. After three “major” relationships ending with me having what I started with (nothing), and a marriage of 10+ years that again has me starting again, this time as a single dad with two kids, I am pretty tired of it this new millennium definition of commitment and “forever after”. It seems the commitment is for the man to stick around and serve as a host for a human parasite so long as she is happy with the arrangement, but her side is always up for renegotiation. As soon as the host becomes unfavorable, or just used up, or she sees a fatter more juicy host somewhere else, she’s gone.

    A friend of mine called it the “Bigger Better Deal ™” and they are always on the lookout for it. I’ve heard it said that men like looks/sex and women like resources. Think about it boys – she’s seeing you as a resource, and hers (looks) is just a depreciating asset.

    The milk is free. Only idiots buy cows in this market. Besides, these days a man needs a wife like a fish needs a hook anyways.

  41. @Insidious_Sid

    I’m comfortable being this honest because of two reasons;

    1. It’s the truth. Just because it’s not pretty, and doesn’t paint the aforementioned women/girls as “victims”, doesn’t mean it is false. Are all women/girls like this? No. But enough are that I can clearly see marriage is currently a raw deal for straight men should a divorce occur. Heck, sometimes marriage is a raw deal even without a divorce.

    2. As I have gender dysphoria, I acknowledge that I’m of the female sex, but I do not consider myself a woman in daily life. Female-bodied/sexed, male-brained/gendered in other words. I’ve no special “loyalty” to a sex I do not consider myself a part of. *shrug* Were I born in the body type I desire, I’d almost certainly be a MGTOW myself.

    I am incredibly sympathetic to what your uncle and yourself have gone through. Congratulations on having custody of your kids…a few of the other men who’ve commented here undoubtedly wish they could say the same. The only guy I know IRL who got full custody after his divorce had to fight for 3 years, despite his teen daughters *wanting* to live with him due to their discomfort around mom’s new boyfriends and her increased drinking habits. Situations like that just make me wonder what the heck the world is coming to. Handbaskets come to mind…

  42. Sadly, females with the kind of self-honesty that Tarnished is displaying here are the exception and not the rule.

  43. It is indeed!
    I have a lot of respect for men who going their own way, understanding they have value as individuals rather than wallets, and are forging their own destinies!

  44. Thank you Tarnished Sophia for giving a female perspective on MGTOW. Your comments show you understand well why some men have chosen the MGTOW path. I think it is a sad path but I believe it is chosen to allow men who’ve had experience with women, like what you have given by example, to continue a life with dignity and self-esteem. I haven’t given up yet. As you mentioned, not all women are like what has driven these men to MGTOW.

  45. Came back to this article again a few years later now. Still a good read. But one thing jumped out at me: “However, I do condemn needless misogynistic rantings, or blaming an entire sex for the way society is.”

    MGTOW is not really blaming an entire sex for the way society is, MGTOW is blaming society for the way an entire sex is…

  46. Hey Sid. Nice to hear from you. Hope you’re well?

    Yeah, MGTOW as a whole isn’t misogynistic, nor does it blame women for the way society is. That’s definitely not an inherent part of going your own way.

    My beef is with *individuals* who do this, though. Hence why I specified that I condemn such behavior from MRAs, Fems, MGTOW, etc.

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